New fish in QT (thank god)

[ronj]

yes, do another dip on Friday..do you not have a ph meter??? those test strips can be inaccurate...also, the fish should be fine..it is probably stressed and disoriented..how long did the dip last??? if it ever starts thrashing or acting funny during the dip, it is time to end the dip

 

[Meche]

25min.

I was using seachem ph.

He didn't do anything too bad, just played dead sometimes, I read that is normal though.

He is dead Any thoughts as to why?

 

[ronj]

it died??????? sorry to hear that....i don't know..black ich isn't really an immediate threat to its life....did it act weird today at all???

 

[Meche]

It died over night. :doubt:

Yeah, the parasites didn't look overwelming at all. Must have been something I did, but I can't imagine what.

 

[ronj]

the only thing i can think of is the ph..the strips could have been way off...

 

[Meche]

Seachem doesn't use strips. They have a reagent. It is really hard to match a color to the scale they provide, but I wasn't even using it. I just compared the two colors from the two water samples. They were close, I suppose they could have been closer, but I'm a perfectionist, so they weren't that far apart. I figured I was within a realistic tolerance and the repeatability of the test. It was probably within .05pH.

 

[Meche]

Steve, when you get back (and a minute) can you provide some failure analysis for this? I would like to try again, but I don't want to kill another one.

Thanks

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Sorry about your fish
25 minutes is awful long for a freshwater dip..I've never gone over 10 minutes. [Usually go about 7-8 minutes] The link provided only recomended 3 minute dips..Where did the 25 minutes come from?
Formalin dips [with saltwater] can be done up to 60 minutes. This method is less stressful on the fish and works well for black ich.

 

[Meche]

The link provided only recomended 3 minute dips..Where did the 25 minutes come from?

The other article reccomended 10-15min. In the thread that Ron linked, Steves gave a maximum FW dip time of 30min.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Thats scary! I didn't see where Steve recomended 30 minutes..I'll have to read again.
I wouldn't go that long myself..

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

Okay...found the link..Yes he did say a maximum of 30 minutes. Black ich is easily removed with dips...I would think 10 minutes would have been enough.
Black ich usually doesn't kill either..Hmmmm a mystery for Steve to solve upon return!

 

[Meche]

Hmmmm a mystery for Steve to solve upon return!

I have to keep reminding myself that patience is a virtue.

 

[steve-s]

Meche, I've read the thread but if you could put into one post the steps you took before performing and during the FW dip, it might make a clearer picture. Please Also include any observation about the fish prior, during and after the dip. Are you sure the fish was afflicted with/just Paravortex?

On the dip time frame, yes 30 min is the maximum I would push it but I do not believe I have ever recommended it. It really comes down to the sensitivity of the species and how well the animal adapts/stresses. I have never seen the need to go beyond 10-15 min though.

 

[Meche]

I used rodi water in a well rinsed measuring cup. I controlled the temperature by putting the cup into a large bowl of warm water. I used the seachem buffer to get the pH up and a small air stone to airate the water. It took a few attempts to get the pH right because of the sensitivity of the pH to the buffer and air. When temp and pH were matched I put the fish in for 25min. I checked temperature every few minutes and adjusted as necessary. While he was in the dip, he was quite calm. I never herd or observed any thrashing, but he did lay down a few times. After the dip, I put him back into his qt. When back in the QT he would alternate between, resting vertically on the bottom tilting back and fourth a little, and swimming around a little. I did the FW dip in the evening and in the morning he was laying on the bottom dead.

The fish looked otherwise healthy. I did not notice any other discolorations or odd behaviors not described as black ich symptoms.

thanks Steve

 

[steve-s]

I used rodi water in a well rinsed measuring cup. I controlled the temperature by putting the cup into a large bowl of warm water. I used the seachem buffer to get the pH up and a small air stone to airate the water. It took a few attempts to get the pH right because of the sensitivity of the pH to the buffer and air.

This part concerns me greatly. RO/DI is cannot be accurately tested for pH or alkalinity with hobbyist kits. It is possible the readings where skewed. When using RI/DI, best practice is to add a known amount of buffer for a larger amount of water volume and let it aerate and equalize ahead of time by a day or so allowing for "tweek" time. Once the RO/DI has time to sit and mix with the added buffer, testing would be much more accurate. In all honesty, some treated tap water would have been a safer bet. RO/DI is not necessary for this purpose.

What was the pH of the dip and QT? Did you happen to test alkalinity?

When temp and pH were matched I put the fish in for 25min. I checked temperature every few minutes and adjusted as necessary.

How did you adjust this? What where the temp variances and the originating temp?

How did you catch the fish for the dip initially and how was the fish returned to the QT?

 

[Meche]

What was the pH of the dip and QT? Did you happen to test alkalinity?

I'm not sure about the number, I think about 8.2 (I remember thinking it was OK). My main goal was to match the pH, I was not paying much attention to the actual number.
I did not test for Alk.

How did you adjust this? What where the temp variances and the originating temp?

By pouring warmer water into the bath around the cup the fish was in (I was careful to not spill or splash any into his cup). Original temp was 79, I kept it between 78 and 80. I was using an analogue thermometer so the swing could have been slightly more than 1 degree.

How did you catch the fish for the dip initially and how was the fish returned to the QT?

With a net. It was pretty easy to catch him. When returning, I poured the cup of water he was in, into the net (net wouldn't fit in the cup).

 

[steve-s]

Nets and tangs do not mix well but that will not be your cause. In future though, avoid nets as much as possible. Especially if the fish is easily caught.

The only thing that might be your cause is the size of the container (Cup?) causing stress or the alkalinity/pH. It's near impossible to say with any certainty either way. Those are your two most likely suspects though.

I forgot to ask if you checked the tank itself for problems? Ammonia, nitrate, pH, temp, salinity and so on?

 

[Meche]

I ran those tests when I set the tank up, and I was doing 40-50% WCs daily. Nothing jumped out at me. Salinity and temp were obviously good thoughout. Do you think I should have been checking Ammonia and nitrates all along too?

Ok, so next time...

1) Get one of thoes large specimin containers and hang that in the tank to keep temperature perfect.
2) Make a 5gal batch of tap water treated with stress-coat. With correct pH, temp, and air saturation for over a day.
3) Order(ed) Salifert pH kit. Order Salifert Alk kit.
4) Use Biowheel that has been floating in dispay for last 2 weeks with smaller WCs.

That sound good?

Also, how do I match Alk? I would bring in the pH with a buffer, but then what if the Alk doesn't match?

 

[steve-s]

Do you think I should have been checking Ammonia and nitrates all along too?

For the dip no, I am/was asking only about your holding tank. Yes, you must check ammonia at least daily and nitrate at least weekly.

Ok, so next time...

1) Get one of thoes large specimin containers and hang that in the tank to keep temperature perfect.
2) Make a 5gal batch of tap water treated with stress-coat. With correct pH, temp, and air saturation for over a day.
3) Order(ed) Salifert pH kit. Order Salifert Alk kit.
4) Use Biowheel that has been floating in dispay for last 2 weeks with smaller WCs.

I don't like using intank products for dips. Murphy's law is just too much temptation. Always perform these things away from the main system. Using a shallow rubbermaid bin or large enough bowl with a heater and then the dip container in that (double boiler sort of) would work for maintaining the temp. For short dips, increasing the temp of the dip by 1° would be fine also. What's the biowheel for?

Also, how do I match Alk? I would bring in the pH with a buffer, but then what if the Alk doesn't match?

You don't need to match the alk but having a reading would have been a plus. The reason I was asking was possibly confirm a pH mis test. I am concerned that the initial pH reading was false or a temporary spike based on the type of water used and the pH fell off to acidic.

Did the fish remain a nice yellow throughout or paled to white? Any sign of a red hue?

 

[Meche]

For the dip no, I am/was asking only about your holding tank.

I gotcha, I was talking about the tank too. I did not test the dip water.

What's the biowheel for?

to help with the nitrogen cycle.

Did the fish remain a nice yellow throughout or paled to white? Any sign of a red hue?

He looked pretty good. Bright yellow, his horizontal stripe turned a little whiter than the rest of his body. Maybe a little read around the gills, not really bad though.