New Skimmer

[mojoreef]

Rowausa yes I have and I still may give that a shot. I have an air pump coming that has about 8 psi and 6 cfm, so it should handle all four venturi's. That is going to be the fall back plan if the diffusors to dont out the way I planned. Thansk for the suggestion though.


Redeye the red dragon are a neat looking pump and look like they can do a decent job, but the price is a little tough...to say the least, lol A red dragon pump on a large Bubble king skimmer still only puts in about 1 cfm of air into the skimmer. With this new/ old idea I can put in 5-6 cfm, with smaller bubbles (100 -150 microns). More air = more bubbles= more protiens removed = ability to process more water = a happy mojo


MIke

 

[NaH2O]

More air = more bubbles= more protiens removed = ability to process more water = a happy mojo

LOL - its always about you....typical male uh oh - I better take cover now.

 

[ldrhawke]

Rowausa yes I have and I still may give that a shot. I have an air pump coming that has about 8 psi and 6 cfm, so it should handle all four venturi's. That is going to be the fall back plan if the diffusors to dont out the way I planned. Thansk for the suggestion though.


Redeye the red dragon are a neat looking pump and look like they can do a decent job, but the price is a little tough...to say the least, lol A red dragon pump on a large Bubble king skimmer still only puts in about 1 cfm of air into the skimmer. With this new/ old idea I can put in 5-6 cfm, with smaller bubbles (100 -150 microns). More air = more bubbles= more protiens removed = ability to process more water = a happy mojo


MIke

I think there is a very quick point of diminishing returns on the CFM of air into a skimmer. At a certain point more and more bubbles have little effect on a limited organic waste load or improve a skimmers efficiency. I believe you may getting into more of a skimmate transport problem up the tube becoming your driving factor for needing more airflow.

The air bubbles simply make the skimmer pipe and inefficient air pump, moving the foam up the tube. As an example: if you had a 2 foot dia. skimmer you would need a lot more air to transport the foam up to the top of the tube, compared to the air flow of a smaller diameter skimmer. It wouldn't neccessarily remove more organic matterial. You may will be able to remove just as much, and maybe even more by, simply reducing the upper tube diameter.

On your skimmer the solution to improve performance may not be more air but to simply reduce the dia. of the top discharge tube, so it is a more efficient air pump and less air is required to pump the foam over the top. This is the reason most skimmers are designed with a reduced discharge neck size.

 

[mojoreef]

LdrHawke I agree thier is always going to be a point of deminishing returns. The more air allows for more water to be produced also. On my skimmer the neck is reduced in size compared to the main tube. I guess one could continually keep reducing the skimmer so one doesnt have to have as much air going into it, but I dont see the point. When air is added to a body of water such as a skimmers mixxing chamber it will reach a point of saturation to where the bubbles will simply off gas. I have found that spot on my skimmer and have turned the sir down. Right now the skimmer is running solid and producing very dark skimmate consistantly through the day.


Mike

 

[ldrhawke]

LdrHawke I agree thier is always going to be a point of deminishing returns. ......right now the skimmer is running solid and producing very dark skimmate consistantly through the day.
Mike

Good....just didn't want you to have to put a 10 hp compressor in the garage :badgrin:

 

[mojoreef]

LOL no I figure I could have gotten away with about half the size of air pump I bought. I assumed that the needlwheels would have pushed more air, I should have looked that up prior.


Mike

 

[ldrhawke]

LOL no I figure I could have gotten away with about half the size of air pump I bought. I assumed that the needlwheels would have pushed more air, I should have looked that up prior.


Mike

I don't know about you but I sure don't need or want any more air the way my Super ER 5-2 is set up and running. In two days it removed at least 2 pints of black goop, I cleaned the cup this moring and it was a solid 1/8" of super gooey goop, and when I got home this evening the cup was full of black goop again. My Super ER 5-2 looks like it will suck the chrome off a trailer hitch ball :badgrin:

 

[RedEyeReef]

Mojo,

I'm sure you have posted this before but I can't find it, what air pump & air stones are you using and do you think this setup is working better then your needle wheels and why?

 

[rufio173]

Really neat idea. What do you mean by you traded out the impellers on the OR and Mag12s?

Peace,
John H.

 

[mojoreef]

I don't know about you but I sure don't need or want any more air the way my Super ER 5-2 is set up and running two days it removed at least 2 pints of black goop, I cleaned the cup this moring and it was a solid 1/8" of super gooey goop

Now take what yo have and times it by 4 and your getting close

I'm sure you have posted this before but I can't find it, what air pump & air stones are you using and do you think this setup is working better then your needle wheels and why?

I used an airpump called Whitewater and the stones were Aquactic ecosystems ultra fine bubble diffusors. The difference on my skimmer between needle wheel and air stone is still night and day. On the NW I had to have the water column way up in the tube and it was only producing 1/5 at best the ammount of bubbles I get now. On the air stone the water column is 8 inches above the stones in the box and the foam rises over 5 to 6 feet. Redeye One thing is still undetermined and that is the time frame beween having to clean the stones. If you have a skimmer and it is wirking good right now I would hold off for a bit and left me see where I end up.

Really neat idea. What do you mean by you traded out the impellers on the OR and Mag12s?

Hi John. The OR came with their version of neddle wheels. I swaped out two OR for two mag 12's when I did that I also swapped out the needle wheels in the OR for the ones in the mags. It turned out that the mag with its original impeller and mazzie produced more bubbles then with the needle wheel, so I swap it back again.


MIke

 

[rufio173]

Hey Mike,

Great tank by the way and thanks for the info... I'm sorry to hear the ORs are such wimpy pumps.

Are these ultra fine diffusers expensive and can you clean them? How fine are the bubbles? How much wattage does the air pump use? I think I wouldn't mind doing some minor maintenance if there is such a huge difference in performance. It's interesting that you kind of did a complete 180 and went back to basics... Hehe. After all, airstone technology has been around since the beginning.

What does the skimmate smell like? I've always felt that the skimmate produced by needlewheels smell the worst compared to airstone skimmers or venturi skimmers by a little bit because I feel that they kill anything that passes through those needles and thus break up or shred little organisms and then when they are carried up into the cup, they decompose a lot faster along with all the other organics in the cup. What do you think?

Peace,
John H.

 

[mojoreef]

John the OR may be fine on a smaller unit, but I would have needed a whole lot of them in mine. The ultra fine diffusors arent that bad in price I believe a 6 inch was like 5 bucks. They can be cleaned by a muratic soak or vinager soak. The key for keeping them clean is to make sure you have a finer airfliter on the pump then the size of the stone. Ex. these stones are 100 to 200 microns so make sure the air filter gets everything from a 100 microns down. I was able to use a shop vac filter for that.
Yes it is a complete reversal, skmmer all started with air stones (me to) bu to get fine bubbles you had to use wood and wood degrades and plugs pretty quick. From thier we all went out looking for different ways to do the same things with out the maintence, that how all these other skimmers were born. In the mean time with lake/river/pond restoration and the aquaculture biz the advancement of sones and pumps carried on. If these stones last (with out cleaning) anywhere close to what they say its a win win, but that reamins to be seen.
On the skimate yep it stinks, but I dont know If I would use that as a way of grading. For me I look for the consistancy and the ability to pull solids as I like to wet skim.


MIke

 

[rufio173]

I agree Mike with your stink comment.... I don't think that is at all a good comparison of any kind.

I'm glad that you are finally happy with your skimmer though. Looks like a beaut and there is nothing like DIYing one for yourself and having it work out great even after seening it go through many iterations.

I started looking around for your other threads and came about the really interesting one with Zephrant, ldrhawke, you and Bernie Lyons. It is very interesting to hear that these airstones have come a long way. I think that is what will make all the difference for you. I actually have a big aquatic ecosystems catolog and was looking at all their incredible airstones and was wondering why people ever got away from them, but apparently they have gotten much better since the days of using limewood for bubble production. Thanks for bringing up this topic again, it was definitely against the grain and I know you've met some resistance with ldrhawke, but the proof is in the pudding I say, and you got some really nasty, pudding in that skimmer of yours.

Peace,
John H.

 

[mojoreef]

Ahhh thiers never resistance my friend just good conversation. I would not want it anyother way, having a good debate brings out all sides of the story and that way folks make thier own choices base on the info offered. Thats what it is all about here on Reef frontiers.

mike

 

[Zephrant]

Ok Mike- Lets say we are designing a new air-stone skimmer from scratch. Taking what you have learned, what should it look like?

Assume it would be sized for a 300-500g system.

Here is a rough cut:

8" main column (maybe 10"?)
48" high, with an option to add height in 1' increments
standard collection cup, with an external waste collector

Basic 1" input/output bulkheads for water from the overflow or a feeder pump

Gate valve on the output


Mixing box- Should this be larger than normal? How is yours working out?

Other things that would be nice-
Air filter, air flow meters
Quick-change port to change the air-stones (think union with a cap).
Twist-off neck for easy cleaning.
Wet neck setup.

Would making it a counter-current flow be important?

Do you think that making the main chamber "wet" was worth the effort, or is just the neck adequate?

???


Zeph

 

[dgasmd]

Mike:

Can you post a picture of the air pump you are using? Also, how loud is it?? For a lot of people, me included, noise may be a huge factor.

 

[mojoreef]

Hmm OK Brent lets give it a shot
I would make the box a little deeper then normal, it can have a normal foot print but make it a bit higher. The box makes for a great place to mix. when the air is injected it becomes a very turbulant place, I think if you were going to go straight tube it might be to much, for the kind of air you wanted. (based on the idea of designing one from scratch). Four foot tube would be ok, I would try to go 10 inch for this tube though, then 6 for the neck and back to 10 on the cup. On the drains and such what ever you have normal would be fine. On the input/output I would go 1 1/2. I went 1 inch and now I am going to have to retro fit. I believe the unit can process more water then just a 1 inch. Gate valve is fine for the output. To be trick I would build in a carbon cup after the gate.
If you are going to go with the same stones as I have I would go with a 100 micron filter for the airpump, that way any particle under that would pass through the stone. Flow meter you would have a better idea then I on which one for air.
For the change of the stones I have mine hard plumbed with 1.2 inch pvc and a union, and the air enter via the box and a small BH. But you are much better at design, so ou might come up with a better idea. One thing is that the stones need to be free standing as in not lieing on top of something. I was thinking a four way with 90 elbows pointing up (using smaller stones) with the stones screwed in. then just drill and tap a hose barb.
As par twist off necks and such thats your game Brent. For flow its going to dictated by the water coming in, once it hits the air bubbles all bets are off as it does get hectic, I have a 45 coming off the input and when the water hits the bubbles it captured and sent up.
On the wetneck I would say yes on both main chamber and neck,but I would do it differently then I did for the main chamber, I owuld go with just tubing that rings the the top of the main chamber and then slit it so the water can pour out evenly, that may even be the plan for the neck to. I would also put in a spray cleaner system for the cup. Using the same style sprinkler manifolds and tubing you can buy little jets for pennies. I would put them into the cup so everyonce and a while you could hose down the cup (just a side thought thier).
For air to this unit I would use the LT 15 and put in 4 three inch stones (they can handle 1.5 cfm which is close to the pump size.)

Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Alberto this is the unit I am using, they all look the same just differ on the size. Mine is the largest and is about 12x6x6. As per sound I would not have my unit under the cabinat, it is to loud. Acorrding to the specs the smallest one is half the sound so 25 db, I think. Remember you dont have to have this unit close if you dont want to, I have mine quite a distance away from the house.

here is the cheapest place I found
http://www.aquacave.com/Whitewater.htm


Mike

 

[rufio173]

Mike,

Anybody close to you with a flowmeter? It'd be nice to see how much air you are really pushing into that sucker. From the looks of it, a lot!!!!

Peace,
John H.

 

[Zephrant]

Ok, now we're cookin'- Nothing like starting a new design.

So if we are looking at a total height of 48 (or 60) inches so:
Mixing box around 12"x12x12" (7.5 gallons)
10" main column, 24" (30") = 7.8 gallons (9.7g)

Total volume: 15-17 gallons

I'm leery of the 6" neck, and 10" cup. I'd want to experiment with a 4" neck and a 8" cup. Saves on material, and small enough to fit in the kitchen sink. At 1 CFM, I've found that a 3.5" neck is fine, so going up to 4" (or maybe 5") should be sufficient.

Would a 6" tall neck, and a 6" tall cup be too short? Keep in mind that the taller the neck, the shorter the main chamber (to keep under the self imposed 48" height).

The 2' or 3' of main tube concerns me a touch- But going to a 72" tall skimmer does raise the price. A 10" tube runs about $53/foot in short sections (1/8" wall) or $110/ft in 1/4" wall.

Anything special that should be done in the mixing box? Baffles, etc, or just an empty box with mounting points for the air stones?

Do you have an estimate of how many GPH you are flowing though it? 1.5" in/out is not a problem.

The carbon cup might be best as an add-on external item. Since this is an external setup (due to height mostly), having the carbon cup mountable on the sump might be nice.

What kind of line are you using from the air pump to the skimmer? The pump just has a 1/4" barb the web site says.

So stand the stones up vertically, not horizontally?

Good idea on the wash-down of the cup. That can be tied to a solenoid tied in to the house water to get a nice high-pressure spray.


This is sounding fun.

Zeph