New thoughts on flow design for my tank...

[akunochi]

Okay so I have some free time every now and then over here and I have been thinking about my flow issues combined with what I have been reading abut flow needs.

a little about my tank. It is a standard acrylic 180 gal. My goal is a mixed sps/lps/zoa tank. Currently for flow I have a Barracuda pump as my closed loop running out of 4 3/4" outlets. I also have 2 Hydor Koralia 4's with sure flow mod pushing around 2400-2600gph each.

Here are my thoughts. Move both K'4s to the far right of the tank. One high and one low. A MP40w on the far left either in reef crest or pulse mode. I also plan to run 2 more closed loop outlets over the back of the tank next to my overflow the under the sand to the front of the tank. These would blow back at the rocks from a 45* outlet and slightly to the left and right respectively.

Here is a currentish pic of the tank...and some paint drawings of the tank as it is now and my thoughts.

Let me know your thoughts. I am trying to do this as cost effective as possible since Lisa is paying for our wedding at the same time.

 

[reedman]

personally I wouldn't do the bottom front outlets. I would put the Vortech in there like you are talking and see what it does. You probably won't need the front outlets and the addition of those will cut output from all other outlets on the CL.

Also, if you are worried about dead spots in the front center then the back center outlets could be pointed at the front glass and allowed to bounce back onto the rock/sand.

What exactly is the problem right now? dead flow areas on the rock? on the sand? Explain a little more and it will be easier to help

 

[akunochi]

Yes there is just generally not enough flow in the tank at all. I think some of it has to do with the size of my rocks even though the aquascape is very very open. There is just serious detrius buildup. I have heard the tank is doing better, but I have not seen it since I deployed. I am shooting for 70-80 times turnover.

 

[reedman]

That's right, forgot you were over defending our freedoms (thanks for that!).

So I will stick with my recommendation then. Try the VT and moving the K4 and see what the result is. You might be happily surprised. If that doesn't work I would say the effort is better put into rescaping a little. Maybe making islands of rock instead of an open wall. fluid dynamics is more dependent on what is in it's way then on where it is coming from in my experience. The less obstruction the flow hits along the way the better it will sustain its power.

 

[akunochi]

Yes unfortunatley that is true! LOL

I love my arching aquascape now, but if I continue to get blocked avenues from the flow then I will have no choice but to come up with a new design. The problem is all of the rock I have is soooo large and beautiful. I believe my largest rock is 50-60lbs dry. I'll do what it takes though. I actually wouldn't be opposed to some calmer spots in the bottom of the tank up front for a zoa garden. The top crest though will need random strong current though as I want to keep a variety of monti's and acros.

I'll get the VT within the next month hopefully when they actually start my pay incentives. What are your personal thoughts on the whole VT vs tunze debate? I know the VT has a wider flow vs a more jet like flow with the tunze...

 

[TJL]

Yes THANK YOU and all who are risking yours for ours,

I have a similar rockscape in my 75g and use a K3 in upper back right pushing flow down behind LR and nothing remains sitting there that isn't attached. So even in your larger system a K4 or two shold blow everything clean from behind.

Todd

 

[cali_reef]

Have you considered up-size the closed loop pipe\outlets to at least 1 inch? Four 3/4" outlet is restrictive to a 4,500 gallon capable pump. Another option I would look into is the use of two eductors on the two back closed loop outlets, if replacing the pipe to a larger size is not an option.

Water velocity can be trade off for volume as the high speed water jet is not good for any coral.

A single Vortech MP40W does not have the speed nor flow to provide a significant flow improvement to your current setup, it takes a lot to overcome your current "point source flow".

 

[roscoe]

I have to agree with Cali here. the one VT will not do much. For a 6' tank you willneed 2.

 

[akunochi]

Well I can't afford 2 right now so it isn't an option.

One mp40@ reef crest mode + 2 K4's at the opposing end modded to push 2400 gph each + the closed loop directed along the back and bouncing off the front glass won't be enough?

By my calcs that is 11700 gph at the peak of the mp40? I will add some eductors on the top closed loops.

Any better ideas on placement? I understand the hype surrounding the VT's and with good reason. I do not believe they are the only answer out there however as SPS has been kept for a long time before it. I will look at getting another one in the future if it is needed, but ONLY if it is needed. I am not in the sport of buying it because it is the latest and greatest. Sarang can vouch for that.

I appreciate your imput so far and look forward to more of it.


Cali: The CL plumbing is 1.5" all the way up to the bulkhead where it is reduced. I used all 45* elbows on my plumbing to help that as much as I could as well. Replacing the actualy outlets would be impossible without draining the tank completley.

Also: How far will the flow push out from one MP40? I have seen the videos of a wave being mad by one mp40 in a 6' tank with no aquascape. ALbeit a very small one 1" or so. SO it seems the flow has the velocity to reach 6' under ideal conditions. I am hoping for no more than a 3' reach to where it will meet the flow of the K4's.

 

[reedman]

Have you considered up-size the closed loop pipe\outlets to at least 1 inch? Four 3/4" outlet is restrictive to a 4,500 gallon capable pump. Another option I would look into is the use of two eductors on the two back closed loop outlets, if replacing the pipe to a larger size is not an option.

Water velocity can be trade off for volume as the high speed water jet is not good for any coral.

A single Vortech MP40W does not have the speed nor flow to provide a significant flow improvement to your current setup, it takes a lot to overcome your current "point source flow".

Cali makes a good point on the eductors. You could easily add 1-2 outlets and put an eductor on one (or both) and get plenty of flow across the length of the tank. I don't agree on the restrictiveness of the 4 x 3/4" outlets though. By my calcs & experience if you have a 1.5" inlet then the pump can't exceed 1.5" volume output and 4 x 3/4" outlets cross section = 1.5" cross section. No loss/restriction there. I would seriously consider trying 1 or 2 eductors and see what it does for you. I'd try one of the upper back outlets pointing the length of the tank. I still think the VT (with the right aquascape) can be very effective. As it is right now, not sure.

 

[akunochi]

hmm well I guess I'll get an eductor and a mp40 and adjust from there..there is just no way the fiancee is going to see 1000$ worth of powerheads as justifiable...on an empty tank. lol

Sarang and Cali: I of course am thankful for your opinions especially with you vast experience over mine. Do you think I would be better off trying to make 2-3 islands instead of having them bridged together? If I did that how high would an acro or monti have to be in the tank in order for my current 3x 250 HQI lights w/ 20K lighting?

There are many reasons why I do not want to buy 2 vortechs at the moment. One is the wedding and the other is the house. I can see the enductors on the cl outlet, but that would create more of a jet across the water right? Couldn't that jet be damaging to fish and corals?

 

[reedman]

I also think a lot has to do with what you really want for flow. Some want chaotic high flow throughout the tank. Some want continuous back and forth, and others want some chaotic here and some calmer flow there. In my tank I have an area that is very high flow and some that is lower flow so that I can keep SPS as well as LPS/zoas/rics. The only way to figure out flow that will work in a tank is to play. You will do one thing and it will be horrible then you will more one PH and all of a sudden everything will work. It's definitely not something to do by analysis, but rather by trial and error. If after trying a few things it still looks like it is not enough flow for your liking then you may decide that another VT is in order down the road sometime (you can sometimes find them used or on group buys for less). Or you may look at a wave box or tunzes or any other combination of options that are out there. More of a challenge for you since you have to work through your fiance.

The eductors do produce a stream of sorts, but it can be positioned so that it does not blow straight onto a coral and all will be fine.

Aquascaping is a whole other mess.....everyone has an opinion on this, but the truth is you have to do what is aesthetically pleasing to you. If it doesnt work out then you have to decide what is an acceptable ballance between practical (allowing good flow) and eye pleasing.

Good to see someone asking intelligent questions again. Thanks!

 

[akunochi]

Thanks for intelligent replies.

Yes I am looking for a mix of flow. I would ideally (and we all know that never comes to life) like a nice chaotic crest for SPS with a calmer bottom for Zoa growth. I am a ZOA ADDICT!!!! If I had to guess what types of corals will inhabit the majority of my tank it would be zoas/paly, acans, scolys, dendros...and on the SPS side milles, montis, acros

Also has anyone had expereince making swirl steins? Most of the DIY links are dead. I would love to have the K-4's rotate from side to side...

 

[roscoe]

Well I can't afford 2 right now so it isn't an option.

One mp40@ reef crest mode + 2 K4's at the opposing end modded to push 2400 gph each + the closed loop directed along the back and bouncing off the front glass won't be enough?

By my calcs that is 11700 gph at the peak of the mp40? I will add some eductors on the top closed loops.

Any better ideas on placement? I understand the hype surrounding the VT's and with good reason. I do not believe they are the only answer out there however as SPS has been kept for a long time before it. I will look at getting another one in the future if it is needed, but ONLY if it is needed. I am not in the sport of buying it because it is the latest and greatest. Sarang can vouch for that.

I appreciate your imput so far and look forward to more of it.


Cali: The CL plumbing is 1.5" all the way up to the bulkhead where it is reduced. I used all 45* elbows on my plumbing to help that as much as I could as well. Replacing the actualy outlets would be impossible without draining the tank completley.

Also: How far will the flow push out from one MP40? I have seen the videos of a wave being mad by one mp40 in a 6' tank with no aquascape. ALbeit a very small one 1" or so. SO it seems the flow has the velocity to reach 6' under ideal conditions. I am hoping for no more than a 3' reach to where it will meet the flow of the K4's.

Yes what you have will be work. What I was saying is that one VT is not enough for a 6' tank. I didn't say what you have won't work. Just from experience with it. The flow dies down after about 4 ft. If I turn off one of mines on either side it drastically reduces flow on that side of the tank. I'm not sure if the 3' wide tank plays a part into that but it might be different in a 2' wide tank. Anyhow what you have should work. I didn't always use VT. I also use Tunze in the tank too imagine that. They both have thier pros and cons. Good luck with your journey to find the flow you are seeking.

 

[akunochi]

Thanks Sarang for your input. You know I trust your opinion. SInce you have used both. What would you say the largest pros and cons of the vortech vs tunze debate is? Also what do you think about wave boxes? I found some pretty good DIY ones on reef central and was considering adding one to the back left corner when I get home as well.

 

[roscoe]

As for aquascaping it is all your preference. Myself I like to have alot of caves and overhangs and try not to use solid types of LR especially towards the bottom of the tank. That is why I like to use the branchy rocks to use as stilts so that way I don't have boulder like solid rocks obsructiing flow towards the bottom of the tank. Your aquascape will play a huge part in your flow. I have less than 200lbs of LR in a 270g DT. It looks like alot more rock than that in there.

 

[akunochi]

I would venture to say I could spare some rock lol and have pulled and sold 3 huge pieces already. I tried to leave the wall open with a lot of caves and tunnels. Many I didn't even know were there until a fish showed me. I got the LR in a deal for 45$ lol. Someone dies and their family was getting rid of a bunch of their stuff. It was all dead when I first got it so I had to seed with some of my rock I had. Some of the pieces are massive towards the bottom with the one like I mentioned weighing in around 60 lbss dry.

 

[roscoe]

Thanks Sarang for your input. You know I trust your opinion. SInce you have used both. What would you say the largest pros and cons of the vortech vs tunze debate is? Also what do you think about wave boxes? I found some pretty good DIY ones on reef central and was considering adding one to the back left corner when I get home as well.

This is just my opinions on these others might differ.

Pros.

VT
I like them for the sleek look inside the tank
wide flow pattern
controlable
Don't need to buy a controller
Great undertow
won't add unwanted heat into your tank

Tunze
Silent
can adjust PH in different directions
wide flow
controlable

Cons

VT
Price!
In my case the dry side is viewable
Not quiet as I would like. The buzzing sound when it revs up can annoy some.
single directional application

Tunze
Price! You think VT are expensive!
need seperate controller
large PH however the newer models are smaller but still big IMO
not much undertow

I have no experience with wave boxes. They look too big and bulky for me.
I'm sure there are more pros and cons between the 2 but those are the major likes and dislikes I have about them.

 

[mcoomer]

In the effort to save money, why not skip the Vortech entirely. Do your aquascaping and closed loop and put two more Koralia 4's in the tank. You could even buy a couple of the big Koralia Magnums and spend less money than you would on a Vortech. Put one of your existing pumps on each side, one high and one low, and then do the same with a Magnum. Adjust as necessary to eliminate your dead spots. With 4 powerheads and a closed loop system that shouldn't be too difficult.

BTW...I don't know which sand pit they threw you in but having been in Desert Shield/Storm way back when I know it's no fun over there. Keep your head down, your eyes open, and come back in one piece.

Mike

 

[akunochi]

Mike I really did consider that as an option. However I am also looking into future expansion. One of the big selling points for me on the vortech or tunze is the controller. The Koralias lack that ability and the controller for the Korallia is as much as a vortech.

The one high one low option has been discussed by myself and a couple members of this forum and is a very valid option. Also the Magnums are HUGE! lol

Believe me I have nothing but time over here during my down time. I have been looking into everything from DIY swirl steins to replacing my MH lighting with some DIY LED's