New to the forums looking for a little advice

[baker89]

Hey, I'm new to the forum and was refered here from a friend of mine. I have a 55g planted FW tank right now and want to dive into marine tanks. I was thinking I would start with a 90g or larger FOWLR and slowly introduce corals as I figure it out? I am having a little trouble getting started though and would appreciate any advice. Right now I'm trying to keep an eye out for a 90 or so gallon tank that is pre drilled and then figure out the sump... But the biggest snag is trying to figure out how I want to incorporate live rock and live sand or pay for it rather. For a 90 or so gallon tank cured LR alone will run me around $900 right(assuming $10 per pound)? Then you add the sand in and the rest of the equipment and your spending a fortune, but I dont want to go any smaller because I know I will grow out of a smaller tank very quickly.

In one of the books I read they recommend you only buy Cured live rock and I was wondering if you could use half base rock, half cured live rock and half live sand and half "regular" sand and toss a shrimp in and just let it run. It will all become live eventually right, just take some time? Or if I really want to save some money can I put all base rock and "regular" sand and just let it run until it populates itself? Of course I've also heard of seeding, but I also heard it costs just as much in the long run and takes more time. I am okay with spending a little time and being patient to save a lot of money, but I'd like to have the tank up and running in about 3-4 months.

So I guess my question is do you guys find it more efficient to bite the bullet and spend the money on cured LR and LS or is there a more economical way to go about it?

Thanks in advanced and I love the site and you guys have helped me learn a lot in a short amount of time.
Dennis Baker

 

[akunochi]

Buy dry rock and seed with live rock. I'm in the middle of cooking dinner, but promise to come back and expound on it. ....consider this a place holder.

 

[baker89]

Looking forward to it :biggrin1:!

 

[NC2WA]

Dennis,

Welcome to RF !!

For any new reefer, I recommend reading the following book BEFORE you put a drop of water in any tank:

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner.

The first half of the book talks about tanks, cycling a tank, water parameter, diseases and how to treat them, live rock, etc..the second half of the book talks about the different species of fish and recommendations..

It is worth having in your library.

Kirk

 

[akunochi]

Ok.. you are addressing many questions that new comers need addressed. I would like to invite you to join the PSAS which is your local saltwater club where you will meet a ton of people and learn a ton. If you are interested just pm me or click the banner in my sig. Now with my recruiting duties done


First. You want to start as a FOWLR and introduce corals. This can be done, but it is kinda like taking a civic and making it go fast...(You know what I'm talking about)

The problem is that most FOWLR fish don't do well with corals so you start building your reef around your fish instead of your fish around your reef. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is kinda like pick one ya know. Equipment is different for a FOWLR than it is for a reef (Lighting skimmer flow etc)

Next: Rock and Sand. I HATE sand. Every time I use it I end up taking it out. It gets in your corals, it changes colors from detritus, it traps waste, BAH! Now. I would recommend checking marco rocks. You can get 50 lbs for 105 bucks shipped for Fiji rock. Other rock for various prices. They also do rock and sand packages. I always start with dry dead rock, seed with 1 or 2 nice Live rocks that I buy and go from there. You can check out my build thread to see start to finish in about 4 months (Rocks were white now all purple with tons of life). Another good source for Dry rock is Bulk Reef Supply.

You mentioned time. I used dry rock, seed with a couple really nice rocks from a tank that someone was taking down (IE cured and in use). My cycle was done in 5 weeks and my tank was alive and thriving with softies, LPS and SPS within 2 months.

Finally....save money buy dry rock and put it in better equipment. If you need lighting let me know. I am making the switch to LEDs and may be parting with MH soon. I am always willing to hook up a beginner. Any more questions just ask. I can help with lighting to sump to plumbing etc. I've built stands, but there are FAR better members here for that (TJL and Peppie)

 

[baker89]

Kirk- I'll go hunting for that book tomorrow or I'll order it online if I cant find it. I have read Marine Aquarium Handbook beginner to Breeder by Martin A. Moe, JR and it has helped get me started anyway. Thanks for the recommendation!

Akunochi...?- I think I didnt really explain myself well with the whole FOWLR thing. I was thinking I would start with a couple reef friendly fish (how ever many my corals can withstand and still thrive when the tank is fully operating 3or4?) And then slowly add corals after I get them established. If this isn't a good method then I am all ears I just thought this would be an easy way to build the tank. It sounds like it might be best to add corals first then slowly introduce the fish.

It appears that you hate sand lol... I assumed this was kind of the only option because it does such a good job as a bio filter. So what is it that you use and is it as good as sand for housing bacteria?

I still need to find the tank and a good stand for it. I'm hoping I'll be able to get a lot of equipment at Seamax, but to be honest I dont know what they are going to have there. I will definatly take you up on your offer to help plumb a sump! I was kind of stressing about that because I cant really get started until that is set up. As far as lights go I would really like to get the best quality light I can and have them dim before they turn off and turn on and replicate some moon light, but I'm not sure what type or brand. From my understanding I will only need mild light for getting through the cycle correct? I still have some time to decide on that(I think).

Thank you all for the help I really appreciate it!

 

[Krish]

Welcome to RF! :welcome:. This hobby can get quite expensive. Just imagine everything you pay for over there and me paying 57% on top of that plus shipping to get it to the Bahamas! . On the rock, if you want to save a few bucks, then go with the base rock and seed it with rock from another member's tank. It will take a bit longer to cycle and for the rock to become populated with all of the beneficial bacteria, but in the saltwater hobby, it's all about patience. It took me one full year using liverock to add my first coral. I wanted to make sure I had zero nitrates first. Some people do it sooner, but I like to wait. Sand is also another thing you can get just "base" and seed it with a cup of sand fromm another person's tank. Sand is something I don't use either for many reasons. Some people like the look (which I do as well) but I like a lot of flow to keep waste in the water column to be filtered out or used up by corals so I runa lot of flow to do this. There's pros and cons to both. Just take it slow and continue to ask your questions and research. You'll be good!

 

[akunochi]

Kirk- I'll go hunting for that book tomorrow or I'll order it online if I cant find it. I have read Marine Aquarium Handbook beginner to Breeder by Martin A. Moe, JR and it has helped get me started anyway. Thanks for the recommendation!

Akunochi...?- I think I didnt really explain myself well with the whole FOWLR thing. I was thinking I would start with a couple reef friendly fish (how ever many my corals can withstand and still thrive when the tank is fully operating 3or4?) And then slowly add corals after I get them established. If this isn't a good method then I am all ears I just thought this would be an easy way to build the tank. It sounds like it might be best to add corals first then slowly introduce the fish.

It appears that you hate sand lol... I assumed this was kind of the only option because it does such a good job as a bio filter. So what is it that you use and is it as good as sand for housing bacteria?

I still need to find the tank and a good stand for it. I'm hoping I'll be able to get a lot of equipment at Seamax, but to be honest I dont know what they are going to have there. I will definatly take you up on your offer to help plumb a sump! I was kind of stressing about that because I cant really get started until that is set up. As far as lights go I would really like to get the best quality light I can and have them dim before they turn off and turn on and replicate some moon light, but I'm not sure what type or brand. From my understanding I will only need mild light for getting through the cycle correct? I still have some time to decide on that(I think).

Thank you all for the help I really appreciate it!

Your explanation of FOWLR now makes sense. Start with some fish and add coral as you find it. There is no "Right" time to start adding it, but just as you find coral that you think you can keep.

Your rock will house all the bacteria you will need and along with good flow and a nice skimmer will keep the tank clean. I use nothing. It is called a bare bottom tank. I have a very deep sand bed in my Fuge however. Also no need to get 90903845739lbs of rock. There are some awesome thread on minimalist aquascaping. it looks better and allows for better flow in the tank then just a wall of rock so keep that in mind.

It sounds like you want Controllable LED lighting. In that case look at the AI SOL Blue. You would need to 2 with a controller for the functions you are wanting as a packaged deal. There are other units out there too though but all about the same cost.

 

[NC2WA]

Dennis
Good call on the lights
The only other advice I can give is get the best skimmer u can afford
IMO the skimmer is the "brains" of your tank. It can make or break your tank
Skimmy is the skimmer guru on the forum

 

[TJL]

Hey Dennis, another BIG ol' :welcome: to Reef Frontiers. Loks as though your off to a great start, in pre-planning everything out it'll definitely save you some coin and a headache or two. More than an earfull of good advice above also to confirm some of your understandings. You will have to be on board awhile to be able to utilize the Classified forum but once there you will see alot of equipment and livestock including Live Rock and Macro Algaes to jump start your system with. Until then keep up the research here in "New to Reefkeeping" forum and ask away on any questions you may have.

Cheers, Todd

 

[baker89]

Thanks all! Apparently you guys work around the clock lol! I will admit I am a little disappointed to hear that sand can cause problems because I really do like the look of it and I enjoy it when different fish or invertebrates interact with it by digging through it and such... I'm glad you guys said something I'll have to look into that a little more.

I might point out that I do know this is an expensive hobby and that I am pretty well off financially. It is merely my thrifty personality that likes to save money where possible, but my first priority is quality. So dont be afraid to tell me to stop being cheap and just spend the money. :razz: Sounds like the skimmer will be one of those things as well as lights.

Another question would be regarding flow in the tank. I LOVE to have currents in my tank and am glad this works to my advantage, but I dont want to stress my fish out and I also dont want to damage my corals. I would imagine that you would simply have areas where the current inst very strong in the tank for the fish to go and rest, but then everything will collect there instead of getting filtered out. Also a cool idea would be to have the filter on a timer and have it pulse to somewhat simulate "waves" anyone ever done this or tried to?

For anyone who has been to Seamax is it a good place for picking up equipment or more of a livestock and learning thing?

Thanks again for your patience, you guys do a great job here!

 

[akunochi]

This is the first year for Seamax so it is new to all of us. Make sure to swing by the PSAS booth Adam and Crystal will be working it Saturday and are a wealth of knowledge.

For Flow there are a ton of ways to do it. I personally love my Vortechs and all the modes they do, plus countless other benefits that I would never go back. I have 2 MP40W on my 75 gallon and will have 4 on my 240 cube. Your idea is called a wave box. There are several DIY out there as well as prepackaged deals like the Tunze wavebox.

For sand there are several things you can do. Aquanaut used some type of board to create the look of sand with sand just around the edges. I have a small area of sand in the back of the tank for my Wrasses to sleep in. You can also create a Faux sand bed using resin and sand.

 

[TJL]

Hey Dennis, don't discount having/using sand as a substrate just yet. Like stated not right or wrong just different aproaches and pros & cons. I have had sand in my systems for 29 years with high flow and would not ever change. The two main pros for me in using sand is #1 aesthetics (looking natural, no matter how well bare bottom tanks function nor how many I've seen "It just isn't aprreciated in my eyes", #2 Fish and invertibrates that require a substrate, I like em in my tanks.

Cheers, Todd

 

[akunochi]

Another Pro is that the sand provides a buffer for your PH at night when your lights are out. There are ways to make up for this with the bare bottom tanks, but that is another conversation. The real question is just how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

As far as aesthetics I have listed a few ways to get the sand look without the sand.

 

[baker89]

How do you guys clean around your stationary aqua scaping? I would imagine with a bare bottom you probably dont even have to worry about it, but with sand I would bet that a lot of debris build up under or next to the base of the LR. I know with my old freshwater if you lift up some driftwood you will always find something underneath. Maybe just having a stronger current in the tank will prevent this plus a considerable amount of fewer fish. Or by having invertebrates who interact with the substrate to help clean up the sand.

As far as the wave box thing goes does it add any extra benefit to the tank? I thought it might make everyone feel more at home, but if its more work then its worth I'll just put it off as a project to keep me entertained down the road.

 

[akunochi]

I never bought into the wave boxes. IMO they are an outdated technology vs the noise and energy the use.

I use flow to remove any debris as well as a turkey baster to suck up any things left on the tank floor.

 

[NaTe R]

I m torn on sand as well i have it and have ran bare bottom as well and i think it does add to a tank but i would recommend if you do sand do as little as you can to get the look of coverage.

As well as the Vortech pumps there is the Tunzes witch have a better track record for a trouble free pump but will run about the same price. They both have there pros and cons for aesthetics and maintenance.

welcome

 

[baker89]

Alright I need some pros and cons advice. Everyone has there own style and I am hoping you guys can help me make an informed decision regarding the dimensions of the tank I want to purchase.

I am at a toss up between a 90g, 120g, and a 125.

90g (48",18", 24")- I like the 90g because I can find them for fairly cheap and they seem like a pretty well rounded tank.

120g (48",24",24")- Probably my favorite tank of choice, but also the most expensive that I have come across. I like that it is 24" deep and allows a lot of room for aqua-scaping, but I am wondering if I really need that much depth. I have a 55g (48",12",24") and I felt limited by the 12" depth in my aqua-scaping.

125g (72",18",24")- Cheaper then the 120g and you get more gallons. This tank seems to be the most bang for my buck.

I guess my real question would be is 18" enough or should I spend the extra money for the 24"? Any information that everyone could give me on their experience would really help me make an informed decision.

Thanks again!

 

[baker89]

Hey Nate! Thanks for the welcome I'm pretty excited to get going on my tank, but want to make sure I plan it all out before I get going. I have decided that I am going to go with at least some sand like you said because I love the critters that interact with it and the natural look it gives. I understand that this might make my experience more difficult, but that's how you learn right?

Also thanks for the tips on the pumps I'll be looking into those a little more deeply soon enough. :razz:

 

[NC2WA]

Dennis,

It depends. (you will hear this answer alot in this hobby).

To choose a tank, I like to think of it backwards. Let me explain. Most people buy the tank then decide what livestock, corals, etc. they are going to put in to it. I would suggest do the opposite.

First have a list of what you plan on keeping in the tank and buy the tank that fits that scheme. For example, if you plan on keeping ANY Tang it is suggested to have a tank with a minimum length of 6' (72inches). Tangs swim and graze all day so need a lot of space to roam, so the 125g be would be OK.

If the tank has a sump then decide what size (that is, how tall) a skimmer you could keep in the sump.

Didn't think you would have any homework when taking up this hobby, eh ?

All of this is talk about in the book I recommended by Robert Fenner.

Kirk