nitrate factory

[Reeferdude]

I hear ya. If I smoked I'd lite up. I don't think I'll pull out the pistol though...:shock: I think this thread got a little side tracked...

 

[DonW]

I hear ya. If I smoked I'd lite up. I don't think I'll pull out the pistol though...:shock: I think this thread got a little side tracked...

Its all good, we just like giving you crap. Its your tank as long as your happy thats all that counts. There is nothing wrong with being the poster child for the "save the bioballs campaign". If your accepting donations I have a shoe box full of new bioballs I'd be happy to donate to a worthy cause.

Don

 

[Reeferdude]

That's a good one. I've never been a poster child but I'll take having my picture up to get an additional fifteen minutes of fame. Don't get me wrong, I understand when fine folks like you and many others try to get everyone to pile their bio balls in a "bra-burning" like anti-bio ball protest but like I've mentioned earlier and many times before, systems with bio balls are not necessarily doomed simply because they have balls as some would lead people to believe. It is all good. I like batting the ball (no pun intended) back and forth..

 

[Brenden]

Man I just threw away two 5 gallon buckets of bioballs when I cleaned out the garage this weekend. Who knew? I have a comment about the cigarettes. My wifes grandmother has been smoking Pall Mall sp? non filter cigarettes since she was 9 years old. You know the little short fat ones like the cowboys smoke in the movies. She is 83 and wide open. My point is I think I could take her out with my pistol.:badgrin: Hope my wife does not read this.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

My wifes grandmother has been smoking Pall Mall sp? non filter cigarettes since she was 9 years old. .

Perhaps it is the nitrates in them that is keeping her going

 

[Krish]

LOL!! This topic has been beaten 1000 times! :lol: We had a great debate on here a while back on bio-balls outcompeting live rock in the advanced section...Really cool debate

My 2 cents on the whole thing is the average reefer would have more chances of having a system with excess nitrates running a wet/dry than not...Do a poll and see what responses you get from people's past experiences and present and also, just look at the what the end result of a wet/dry is...Nitrates. That's not saying you can't have a nitrate free tank running a wet/dry because it is possible, but it is kinda rare... Atleast from what I've seen played out here time and time again. I read in this thread where someone mentioned that wet/dry's weren't designed to create nitrates which is probably true, but the fact is they do create them which is why people have strayed away from that old "method" when keeping a reef setup and moved on to other methods. I think wet/dry's were mainly designed for people wanting to keep alot of fish in a given tank (FO) where there would be tons of waste needing to be processed really quickly and seeing that fish can tolerate nitrates to a pretty good degree, then it wouldn't be an issue. I don't think reef systems were in the original plan where nitrates could be a problem to corals etc but what do I know...

In any event, going back to the original question as already mentioned before, the end product of anything in a wet/dry environment will be nothing more but nitrates do to the highly oxygenated water and no anaerobic zones for denitrification to occur. It's not the bio-balls per say that are bad, but the highly oxygenated atmosphere they are in. You could toss leggo in the place of bio-balls and have the same results. All bio-balls are is increased surface area for aerobic bacteria to grow and that's it.

 

[Reeferdude]

I smoked for about 20 years, my father for about 40, my mother for about 20, my sister 20. None of us smoke now and none of us have cancer but I bet if we all took a bullet between the eyes we'd all suffer the same trauma.

People drive more fuel efficient cars now too but the old big block Chevy's can still tear up the road. The horse drawn carriage has been replaced. Cell phones replace land lines. Why? Because something new came along. New may be better, but old still works. I ran my current tank for more than six months with nothing more than about 10 lbs of live rock and some crushed coral with no nitrates. More than 3 years later still none. A poll would be interesting Krish but you'd have to limit it to people who could specifically contribute a nitrate problem to the balls and I doubt enough people could actually do it. Many times it's other factors.

 

[Krish]

More than 3 years later still none. A poll would be interesting Krish but you'd have to limit it to people who could specifically contribute a nitrate problem to the balls and I doubt enough people could actually do it. Many times it's other factors.

Well a lot of people in the past/present solved their nitrate issues by simply tossing the wet/dry altogether...I can testify to this because I was one of these people and have witnessed this played out many times by others here as well. I never got my nitrates under control until I got rid of my wet/dry and converted my wet/dry into a sump. The fact of the matter is nitrates is the end product of a wet/dry so in most cases (not all cases) only the obvious will occur if you really don't know what you are doing, which is an accumilation of them over time seeing they have no way of performing denitrification. I mean look around and see who's running a wet/dry with a reef setup or in a system where nitrates are a primary concern and you will not find very many people using them because of them being a "nitrate factory" which they are known as now.

In any event, like I always say, go with works for you best, but personally, I would never recommend a wet/dry to anyone who is concerned about nitrates. The reason why is because of the simple fact that they're aren't very many people out there that I have heard of that is using a wet/dry and not experiencing any nitrate issues as a result, but rather have converted from using one. That's not to say you can't keep un-detectable nitrates by using a wet/dry because people have accomplished this, but it will take a lot of effort IMO to do so.

 

[DonW]

RD man the sciences is not going to change. While your advocating bioballs you need to disclaim why its working for you. Most of the folks that ask questions about wetdrys are new to the hobby. Most will not understand all the other factors that go into removing the nitrates that your bioballs are creating.

Don

 

[csababubbles]

one of my tanks i run bioballs (wet/dry) as well as live rock. i have very very minor nitrates (under 5 usually). I have very messy and large fish that produce huge "shots" of ammonia and associated wastes. the excellant efficiency of the wet/dry system serves me well. although denitrification is likely to be more efficient when the nitrification process occurs in the vicinity of the live rock, instead of relying on the nitrate laden water to make its way over to the live rock. I am willing to give this up in order to make sure the huge amounts of waste my fish produce is broken down as fast as possible.

 

[Reeferdude]

Gentlemen,.......Slow down. First, I'm not advocating bio ball. Second, Before I joined this site I never used the internet as a reference for information on Reef systems. None of my friends used the Internet either, so the bottom line is although the internet is a great tool it doesn't account for all the opinions available in todays reefing community. In other words, out of all the people who maintain reef systems only a fraction use the internet for information and guidance, so to point at a fraction of available data and opinion as a conclusive finding simply because members of internet websites has reached a consensus is faulty reasoning. Heck only about 65-70% of the US population even have computers in their homes.

This thread sand bed advise is a perfect example of how this type of reasoning can promulgate the demise or foster a recommendation of any particular theory or system over another. This guy asked for help with Alkalinity, Phosphate, and Calcium. His actual question was about substrate re-introduction and what happened? Everyone piled on about his bio balls being a problem when he said nothing about a Nitrate issue.

As far as my system. I would say it's many years of experience, good husbandry skills a balance of inhabitants and a extremely slow pace that make it function properly. I think most people want instant gratification. Great looking corals and abundant habitat like they see in many of the very beautiful reef systems on the site but that takes time and patience that most people just don't have. The vast majority of my system has grown directly from the rock, which was held over from a previous system. As a matter of fact you guys know one of my old systems. MATTS125. I'm the guy who sold it to him. Remember that big 100-150lb rock?....That was mine. My current tank is over three years old and it's yet to mature in my opinion. I will eventually grow other coral with the wet dry but at the pace I'm going it'll be about 5 years from now, unless I croke or something...

Don't get wrong. You guys are a huge source of very good information and I learn something new just about every time I peruse the forums so please don't think I'm being combative if I provide a different perspective from time to time...

 

[csababubbles]

Gentlemen,.......Slow down. First, I'm not advocating bio ball. Second, Before I joined this site I never used the internet as a reference for information on Reef systems. None of my friends used the Internet either, so the bottom line is although the internet is a great tool it doesn't account for all the opinions available in todays reefing community. In other words, out of all the people who maintain reef systems only a fraction use the internet for information and guidance, so to point at a fraction of available data and opinion as a conclusive finding simply because members of internet websites has reached a consensus is faulty reasoning. Heck only about 65-70% of the US population even have computers in their homes.

Maybe only 70% have computers but take a look at at who makes up that population without computers. I highly doubt it is reefkeepers, its most likely the senior population and poor people. Many seniors do not like new techology or are intimidated by it or have decided that they have no need for PC's and therefore do not have computers. Poor people cannot afford computers and rather spend their money on more essential goods. Its expensive keeping a reef with lights, skimmers, tanks, coral prices, etc. You most likely have disposable income and therefore will most likely have a computer. If you are not using a computer then you most likely do not have the latest and most modern information on reefkeeping. The latest revolution in reefkeeping came about in Germany and spread very very slowly until the wide spread use of the internet which allowed the information to spread outside the Berlin Aquarium Society and throughout the world. If you are not learning from the internet then you most likely have outdated information and methodologies. If you did not have the internet how would you know about skimmers, live rock, deep sand beds, growing macro algae, appropriate foods, vitamins and minerals, calcium reactors, etc? It would eventually trickle through to you through mediums like books and magazines but overall you would definately be in the dark ages of reef-keeping.

 

[Reeferdude]

Guess what. Our local reef store and go to guy I've known for many years (good freind of mine) doesn't use the internet for problem solving or updated technology. Geesh you missed the point completely dude.

Like I--------Nevermind!

 

[DonW]

It has nothing to do with the internet or internet forums. Like stated before its just accurate science. There are many ways to keep a reef. Bioballs is one of many. As I stated before understanding how your keeping the nitrates that are being created by the bioballs under control is also science. If you have macro algae that would contribute to your success. If you have a dsb that would also. If you have "alot" of LR that would also help and of course there are water changes.
Believing that bioballs dont create nitrates is nothing more than denile. Understanding what is going on in a system is one of the keys to keeping it long term no matter how you do it.
There are also different types of reef systems which is something folks on internet forums seem to forget. Not everyone wants a SPS system and not everyone want a softy system. Both have their different needs. There are also different levels of each system. Some strive for a natural look with lots of everthing and critters. Some strive for sterile but bright colored sps. Everyone attempts to build what they as individules concider a nice looking reef. My method is not going to support your system and your method isnt going to support mine, understand why is more important. IMO there is more to this hobby than just keeping an aquarium its the why and how that keep it interesting.

Don

 

[csababubbles]

Guess what. Our local reef store and go to guy I've known for many years (good freind of mine) doesn't use the internet for problem solving or updated technology. Geesh you missed the point completely dude.

Like I--------Nevermind!

??

what is your point then?

 

[csababubbles]

Believing that bioballs dont create nitrates is nothing more than denile.
Don

Nobody is denying this. Its obvious that people have different systems and they all run a bit different, and there are different ways to get to the same endpoint. I don't get what you are attempting to debate.

My long winded response about was in reference the the gentlemen who said he is getting along fine without the internet. But I feel his knowledge is from the internet, maybe not directly, but I would feel safe to say most of the information and methodologies he has in place have been passed through to him from the internet, indirectly. Someone from his LFS reads the info on the web, or someone in his reefing circle or club, or however. How else would he know about live rock? skimmers? etc.

 

[Reeferdude]

??

what is your point then?

OK. I'll make it real simple.

Not everyone who has a reef uses the internet.

 

[Krish]

Gentlemen,.......Slow down. First, I'm not advocating bio ball. Second, Before I joined this site I never used the internet as a reference for information on Reef systems. None of my friends used the Internet either, so the bottom line is although the internet is a great tool it doesn't account for all the opinions available in todays reefing community. In other words, out of all the people who maintain reef systems only a fraction use the internet for information and guidance, so to point at a fraction of available data and opinion as a conclusive finding simply because members of internet websites has reached a consensus is faulty reasoning. Heck only about 65-70% of the US population even have computers in their homes.

This however doesn't account for the fact that wet/dry's produce nitrates as their final product which they have no way of dealing with. That is plain and simple facts internet or not.

This thread sand bed advise is a perfect example of how this type of reasoning can promulgate the demise or foster a recommendation of any particular theory or system over another. This guy asked for help with Alkalinity, Phosphate, and Calcium. His actual question was about substrate re-introduction and what happened? Everyone piled on about his bio balls being a problem when he said nothing about a Nitrate issue

I see what you mean about the other thread, but this thread is talking about wet/dry's and nitrates which was asked by the original poster and why we are addressing the issue here on this thread..

Going back on the issue of using a wet/dry, I personally don't have a problem with them in the sense that I think they are great for fish only systems or where nitrates to some degree aren't a problem. I think most LFS would be doomed without them. Also, as csababubbles mentioned about his tank, he feels that that setup is perfect for dealing with his huge bioload that needs to be dealt with promptly which I see nothing wrong with personally if it is working great for him. However, where corals are involved and wet/dry's are known to result in an accumilation of nitrates over time, then I personally wouldn't recommend them to anyone in this setting. Why? Because I don't think very many people know how to successfully run a low nitrate tank using a wet/dry as some have been successful in doing... Just my 2 cents

 

[csababubbles]

double post

 

[csababubbles]

OK. I'll make it real simple.

Not everyone who has a reef uses the internet.

That may be true but the only reason you have the modern information you do is because of the internet. It is a very effective communication tool and you would not have all the modern equipment and information if the medium did not exist. Most of the modern equipment and techniques were developed in germany and without the internet it would not have gotton to us in the United States, or at the very least it would have taken a LONG LONG time.