Nitrates Calculation (Take 2)

[josh88]

Oh and I been blowing the diatom off with a turkey baster. And my skimmer seems to be getting a lot of it.

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[Krish]

Ok that make sense Mojo. So I've bought a syphon, and also a clean up crew. A few snails and 5 hermit crab. They are doing a pretty good job turning the sand over. And I understand that one in, one out concept. So I'll keep up on the tank. ? Should I still perform a 15% water change every week. Without it sending coral that I place in The tank into shock. I'm going to buy one more 5 gallon bucket, I have my power head to mix the water And I'll get another thermometer. But if my sg drops does that mean I need to add salt to the mix?.

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IMO I think your tank is too young for corals. It needs time to stabilize and for you to know just how much of this or that is needed to keep your parameters on target. Like I mentioned before, it took about 2 months to complete the initial cycle on my tank and another 9 months to put in my first coral. I waited until nitrates dropped to zero, no noticeable algae and I had my salinity, calcium, alk and mag all within the range I wanted and balanced there. I used a 2 part supplement B-Ionic that dosed the tank with calcium and alk and I tested regularly to make sure I was adding the right amount. You add more corals the demand increases for trace elements.

As for a water change, it shouldn't affect anything granted you are replacing water with water that is of the same salinity level as the tank's water etc. We have a guy here that did a 100% water change on his tank over the course of a week and had beautiful corals. So I say take a step back a bit and get to know your tank. It's during this time, you get to know your tank ( the in's and out's of it) so that you will be fully prepared to handle any issue/s that may come up and know what is needed to maintain it


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[josh88]

Oh I'm not adding anything except the hermits. Their a lot hardier and can with stand dramatic changes. I'm just noting everything everyone says. And then advance researching that. The only thing that has dropped in my tank is my sg, And alk. Which I Thought would have caused my calcium to drop to. Or maybe I'm wrong. My mag was really really low, about 680 ppm. When it should be twice that amount. I have a note book were I test about every 2 days. And write down my states.

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[josh88]

Maybe I should say for future reference on some of my ? Lol. And you say trace elements. Such as stronium, etc, or the actual supplement called trace elements

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[mojoreef]

Are the bacteria using NO3 as the nitrogen source for nitrogen fixation? This would make sense, but I'm not sure if the bacteria can separate the nitrogen from the oxygen. If the NO3 is the nitrogen source for the bacteria, is the remaining oxygen used in aerobic respiration as well?

Ok your making me go a little deeper my friend, I like it, its good to see the interest!

In the bacterial cycle that is concerned with Nitrogen its not a simple A goes to B and then to C and so on. Their are many pathways ( Assimilative N process, Dissimaltive N process) that are occupied by many different bacteria, couple that with the fact that their are many enviromental situations that change and/or alter the means and methods that they use. Anyway it gets complicated, here is an example. In our simple definition of a bacterial cycle in our reefs we assume that bacteria reduce ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and then if off gasses, BUT if ammonia if present within the environment the bacteria are working in the ammonia represses the first enzyme needed in the nitrate reduction pathway and instead of gas being produced it goes to ammonium and just re-cylces instead. These things happen in abundance in bacterial cycles.

Ok so to your question, Facultative bacteria can use dissolved oxygen with in the water, but when that goes low or void they can obtain oxygen from sulfate ions or nitrate ions or a whole host of other products. Thus they can live in aerobic, anoxic or anaerobic conditions. A thing to keep in mind is that bacteria are just donating protons and electrons in order to reduce a product, or they are taking electrons and protons to oxidize products.

Thanks for the clarification with the biofilms. I thought the biofilms were mainly used to attach bacteria to a medium, I didn't realize that they also use this as a way to control the oxygen in their environment.

The bacteria are not using biofilms to control their environment. They are creating a variety of enzymes, acids and a variety of other products in order to do what they do, now mix in other products and their end products and you end up with a stew of Microbial paradise. OTHER bacteria that have an affection to the enzymes, biproducts and so on then populate the biofilm as the environment has changed and their is a food source for them now to, OR as in the case of facultative bacteria they stop taking oxygen directly from the water and instead take it from the actual N source and thus have themselves a different bi-product??

Hope I didnt muddy that up more.

mojo

 

[Lbrewer34]

Mojo,
So, when I am sugar dosing, is is the carbon source that is supporting the bacterial colonies? I didn't think most bacteria have mitochondria so they wouldn't need glucose for a citric acid cycle, but there might be other organisms that could use it. I do know that the addition of sugar, more so that vodka has kept my NO3 at a minimum, something that hasn't happened since I started the tank over a year ago. The other question I have is do you think it matters where the sugar is added in the tank? Would there be a difference for better or worse adding it to the sump or the main tank?
Thanks for the responses.

Lee

 

[josh88]

Lol umm... I'm confused reading your post lee. I saw sugar, and vodka. I don't want to sound stupid, but for what purpose would you use these?

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[Lbrewer34]

As crazy as it sounds, using the sugar or vodka actually helps reduce the NO3 levels and some have reported increased coral coloring and growth. I can only really speak for myself, I have tried both. With the vodka, I used a smaller dose, but I also didn't see as much of a NO3 reduction as I see with the sugar. From my understanding, it isn't the sugar or the vodka that really does anything, it's the carbon. Some organisms can utilize inorganic carbon, such as CO2 and use this to obtain energy (autotrophs). Other organisms cannot use carbon in it's inorganic state and need it as an organic compound such as glucose (sugar) in order to obtain energy (heterotrophs). From my understanding, both sugar and vodka are sources of organic carbon, which feed the bacteria and other microorganisms that promote a healthy tank. My earlier question was referring to the energy production of bacteria. Glucose (sugar) is an important aspect of energy production for almost all living organisms. Through complicated processes called the citric acid cycle and the calvin cycle, sugar is broken down by cells and used to create energy. This process happens with specific cellular organelles called mitochondria or chloroplasts. Most (if not all) bacteria cells lack specific organelles, so the citric acid or calvin cycle doesn't occur. I'm not sure if bacteria use the sugar as an energy source or if they just use the carbon in the sugar. I'm not by any means an expert so someone please correct me if I mixed some thing up.
Lee

Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com

Lol umm... I'm confused reading your post lee. I saw sugar, and vodka. I don't want to sound stupid, but for what purpose would you use these?

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[mojoreef]

Mojo,
So, when I am sugar dosing, is is the carbon source that is supporting the bacterial colonies? I didn't think most bacteria have mitochondria so they wouldn't need glucose for a citric acid cycle, but there might be other organisms that could use it. I do know that the addition of sugar, more so that vodka has kept my NO3 at a minimum, something that hasn't happened since I started the tank over a year ago. The other question I have is do you think it matters where the sugar is added in the tank? Would there be a difference for better or worse adding it to the sump or the main tank?
Thanks for the responses.

Ok so if your looking at nitrification bacteria use a ratio of carbon, Phosphate and Nitrogen to reduce. So with this understanding we can say that the bacteria are limited in population in our tanks by these three products. If their is a decline in these or an absence of one of them their population will reduce. So when you are dosing sugar or vodka you are now suppling one of the three things they need to reduce, now all they are going to look for is the other two and as long as thier is P and N then you will get reduction. As per location no I dont think if you are dosing a liquid its really going to matter to much as you have no control or means of testing, kind of flying blind.

So something to think about when doing this. When you dose a liquid like vodka or similar into your tank you have no way to test for it, so you dont know how much carbon you are putting in? you also dont know how big of a carbon pool you currently have or are creating? Remember the old adage?? dont add it if you can test for it? So now you are dosing carbon to your tank and you have a carbon pool built up because you have no idea??? then something happens? say a fish dies. Now you have just added a big P or N source to an existing carbon pool whats that going to do for yea? Yeppp bacteria rave party!! lol now you get a huge bacterial population explosion?? So what do bacteria also use for nitrification?? .........Oxygen!! So they suck the oxygen out of the tank while blooming, so what happens to all the other critters in your tank that like oxygen to???


Mike

 

[NC2WA]

Josh,

Unless you know what you are doing with vodka dosing, it is best left alone as you can crash your tank easily by over doing it.

 

[josh88]

Oh ok. I was more just asking. I'm no pro nor have the knowledge, I'm only 23 and still have a lot to learn. I'm your average Joe, but still pursue knowledge in everything. It's why you see me mudding up post with ?. I only seek the know how, and look to absorb every angle to the hobby.

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[josh88]

As crazy as it sounds, using the sugar or vodka actually helps reduce the NO3 levels and some have reported increased coral coloring and growth. I can only really speak for myself, I have tried both. With the vodka, I used a smaller dose, but I also didn't see as much of a NO3 reduction as I see with the sugar. From my understanding, it isn't the sugar or the vodka that really does anything, it's the carbon. Some organisms can utilize inorganic carbon, such as CO2 and use this to obtain energy (autotrophs). Other organisms cannot use carbon in it's inorganic state and need it as an organic compound such as glucose (sugar) in order to obtain energy (heterotrophs). From my understanding, both sugar and vodka are sources of organic carbon, which feed the bacteria and other microorganisms that promote a healthy tank. My earlier question was referring to the energy production of bacteria. Glucose (sugar) is an important aspect of energy production for almost all living organisms. Through complicated processes called the citric acid cycle and the calvin cycle, sugar is broken down by cells and used to create energy. This process happens with specific cellular organelles called mitochondria or chloroplasts. Most (if not all) bacteria cells lack specific organelles, so the citric acid or calvin cycle doesn't occur. I'm not sure if bacteria use the sugar as an energy source or if they just use the carbon in the sugar. I'm not by any means an expert so someone please correct me if I mixed some thing up.
Lee

Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com

I appreciate the time you took to explain to me the purpose of doing this. I'll read the web site thanks man

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[josh88]

@mojo- so if there is no way to test for carbon, except for mathmatical equation break down? Why use this technique to begin with? It sound dangerous. As NC2WA stated if you don't have know how of what to do. It's best left alone.

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[Lbrewer34]

@mojo- so if there is no way to test for carbon, except for mathmatical equation break down? Why use this technique to begin with? It sound dangerous. As NC2WA stated if you don't have know how of what to do. It's best left alone.

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It took me about 2 months to get to the right dosage for my tank, and now, if I forget to dose for two or more days, I can definitely see a difference. From my understanding, vodka and sugar dosing accomplishes the same task, but vodka is more purified. I went with sugar because it is what I had readily available. Before I dosed, my tank was established for about a year, and my NO3 was never below 20ppm. When I started dosing sugar I really saw difference, now my NO3 stays below 1ppm, and I don't worry as much about overfeeding. I think where it can become dangerous is if too much sugar/vodka is added, the O2 saturation can drop drastically, I know that in the article I read, they really emphasized the need for a skimmer before attempting any type of dosing. I know that Brightwell sells a product that works along the same lines without as much risk, but since I have found a happy medium in my tank, I've just stuck to what has worked. As a side note, when I started sugar dosing, I had already experienced a huge die off of coral, and my tank was getting overrun with red algae. (Lack of maintenance). Since I have gotten better reef keeping habits and better water perimeters, I have added some new softies and have had great success with them. One thing I am really careful and cautious about how I acclimate new corals.