No PE on SPS corals

[Scooterman]

Putting it that way, that is what I understood long ago when Boomer explained it
I guess the discussion takes for granted several things like what is used for a reef tank & not a glass tube in a vacuum. I'd have to go back & refresh the details of the studies sanjay & Dan has done, there are a few things that is taken for granted I think that clouds a few things on my part.

 

[sanjay]

Kevin;

I got your email.. sorry for the delay in replying. I was out of town on Spring Break in Sunny San Diego.

A bulb in a reflector behaves slighlty differently that a single point source, especially since we are not far away from the reflector to treat the whole thing as a point source. The typical rule of thumb for point source is 5X the distance from the size of the source.

But still, with all reflectors as you change the distance from the water surface the light will spread more and hence there will be areas that will see a reduction in light and some that will see an increase due to the light spreading. Reflectors are designed to spread the light. A true parabolic reflector (if one exists) will have a parallel beam of light with small spread.

Light entering the tank, will get refracted and bend, so theoretically there will be some reduction in the spread. Some light may even totally reflect off the surface and some will also totally reflect off the glass walls of the tank due to total internal reflection. All these effects are very difficult to quantify measure given the range of tank sizes, water depths etc. But these effects will be quite similar for all light entering the tank. So to make comparisons in a meaningful manner its best to eliminate the variables and hence all data I have is taken in air. This allows for a meaningful comparison to be made.

Then there is the reflected light off the sand, corals, rocks etc that is scattered in all directions and would be very hard to also account for. If no light was being reflected off these surfaces and leaving the tank glass you would have a very dark tank ;-)

Hopefully this answers some of the issues that were raised here regarding light.

sanjay.

 

[dnjan]

Sanjay - from the work of yours I have had a chance to read, it appears that the area in reefkeeping where we still have lots of improvement to make is reflectors. Especially for larger tanks. Some reefers are spending in the thousand-plus dollar range for skimmers, yet cringe at the thought of a few hundred for reflectors. One would think that with some spectral aluminum and a computer-controlled router (to make the supports to hold the reflector shape), a person could make custom reflectors that were designed for specifdic tank sizes. Not for a couple of hundred dollars, but considering electric costs for larger bulbs to make up for reflector efficiency it seems to make sense.
This one-size-fits-most approach (with respect to reflector availability) seems short-sighted.

 

[pammy]

Finally caught that Coral Beauty yesterday and brought him back to the LFS. Brought home a firefish. Also hooked up the T.L.F. Phostphate reactor yesterday. Will see if this makes a difference. I did notice on a few of the Milliporas, that there is a small bit of tissue recession near the base. That wasn't there when I brought them home, but don't know how long it's been there. Hopefully it won't get worse. Oh, one thing I noticed when I hooked up the T.L.F. phosphate reactor... The skimmer stopped producing skinmate. Bubbles aren't making it to the neck at all since I added the phosban. I did rinse the phosban really well before putting the reactor into the sump. Ran a couple gallons of RO/DI water through the phosban in the reactor, until it ran clear. Is this normal? How long till the skimmer kicks in again? It's been 12 hours so far. Thanks, Pam

I concur also, flakes are a bit "dirty" compared to other foods. I use a very small bit every couple of weeks just because I like to feed some of everything for the best shot to give the fish all they may need. While your nitrate is at 5ppm thats not really bad at all. Yes we all strive for perfection, but I have seen many tanks with decent SPS with 10-15ppm. The phosphate reduction via TLF reactor will be a big plus. Test kits are not that great at showing true phosphate and many do not even show different kind of phosphates at all, so they may well be higher then you are showing with a test kit.You might want to also get your Magnesium up to around 1300, and also raise your Alk a little bit. These adjustments will help all things a little.

I also am guessing that the frag tank did not have the best parameters as the display tank. Most I have seen do not, unless they are plummed off the same sump. Some of my SPS frags have taken even up to 2 months to adapt to my tank, so if no RTN then your already half way to success.

The Coral Beauty is probably your main problem. He is no doubt doing more damage than you have seen. The fact you have seen him nip is enough to know that he is up to it, and also probably takes a lot more then you see. Even "some" nipping is not good. Good luck catching him!

 

[dnjan]

Oh, one thing I noticed when I hooked up the T.L.F. phosphate reactor... The skimmer stopped producing skinmate. Bubbles aren't making it to the neck at all since I added the phosban.

Many of the phosphate absorbers also absorb organics. So what you essentially did was reduce the organics that the skimmer was removing, so not as much to skim.

Unfortunately, this exhausts the phosphate absorber more quickly. Since phosphate absorber is relatively expensive, I prefer to run carbon first, then go from the carbon to the phosphate absorber. That way the (cheaper) carbon gets the organics, and the phosphate absorber is preserved for the phosphate.

 

[pammy]

Thanks Don. The phosphate reactor isn't in-line with the skimmer. The reduction of bubbles was immediate. Wouldn't it take quite a while before enough of the water could go through the reactor to make a difference in what the skimmer was pulling out? Good idea about running carbon first.
Thanks, Pam

Many of the phosphate absorbers also absorb organics. So what you essentially did was reduce the organics that the skimmer was removing, so not as much to skim.

Unfortunately, this exhausts the phosphate absorber more quickly. Since phosphate absorber is relatively expensive, I prefer to run carbon first, then go from the carbon to the phosphate absorber. That way the (cheaper) carbon gets the organics, and the phosphate absorber is preserved for the phosphate.

 

[dnjan]

Did the phosphate reactor change a water level in your sump at either the skimmer pump, or (for some skimmers) at the skimmer outlet? Some skimmers are sensitive to water level.

 

[pammy]

Hi Don. Actually, it did change the water level. I noticed that the water was a good inch higher, but I also did a water change yesterday, so it could have been my adding a little more water than I took out along with the reactor. I'll see how it looks when I get home tonight. Thanks! Pam

Did the phosphate reactor change a water level in your sump at either the skimmer pump, or (for some skimmers) at the skimmer outlet? Some skimmers are sensitive to water level.

 

[pammy]

I took a peak at one of my Milliporas early this morning, that had the best PE when I brought it home, and has had no PE at all for the past few weeks. Totally smooth. This morning, two days after removing the Coral Beauty and adding the TLF Reactor with Phosban, I can see the polyps just starting to peak out, which I hadn't seen for a few weeks now.

Is the small bit of tissue recession at the base of a few of these Milliporas something to be concerned about? The recession is about 1/8" to 1/4, and not all around the base of the milli, just a portion of it, in kind of a triangular shape. I can post pictures if it will help Obviously, I need to keep an eye on it to make sure it's not spreading, but when do you know if you have to cut off the good part of the milli and remount it? Superglue gel wasn't holding some of these milli's well, so I used an underwater epoxy which is holding much better. The Milli is stuck directly into the epoxy, and is not on a frag plug or rubble. Could that have caused the tissue recession at the base, or does tissue recession just typically start at the base? If I've taken care of the phosphate problem, should I see the tissue recession stop, and possibly re-grow over the bare spot?

I lowered the light from 10" to 9", but that's about as low as I can safely go because the fixture is hung from a cathedral ceiling, and I'm near the end of one of the two cables. I can see if I can get a longer one from the manufacturer if I really need to lower it more. Just FYI...I have the Elos Planet light fixture, and it does have individual reflectors for the MH, and each of the 4 T5 bulbs. I've been told they are really good reflectors. Will the 9" be close enough, or should I look into a new cable?

Skimmer kicked back in 36 hours after adding the TLF phosphate reactor. I'm pretty impressed with the simplicity of the reactor. "Reactor" just sounds like a complicated piece of equipment!

Hopefully I'm heading in the right direction with the SPS.
Thanks for your help!!
Pam

 

[Scooterman]

One reason to lower lights to the surface is to get the most into the tank from the reflected light, If you go too high up you'll loose some of that light that will go outside the tank.
Two Part solutions have some GFO at very reasonable prices, I just started using the HC GFO, I think I'll go with the pellets next time as it isn't as messy.
Keep & eye on any tissue recessions, you may be able to stop it with dab of S/G.
Keep up with the WC's.
I have some milliporas that will stay with extended polyps, some LPS only at night just because they aren't extending doesn't mean that there is a problem, may be they are getting all they need, are you target feeding any (I don't, just asking)?

 

[pammy]

Thanks Scooterman. Can I use the superglue right out of the water on the part where the tissue receeded, or do I have to pull the frag out of the water and do it outside of the tank?

I'm spot feeding only my sun coral and my duncan. I am not spot feeding any sps. I was told by this guy that has an incredibly beautiful SPS tank, that he doesn't add anything for his SPS....just let's the "fish poo" take care of the feedings.

Pam

One reason to lower lights to the surface is to get the most into the tank from the reflected light, If you go too high up you'll loose some of that light that will go outside the tank.
Two Part solutions have some GFO at very reasonable prices, I just started using the HC GFO, I think I'll go with the pellets next time as it isn't as messy.
Keep & eye on any tissue recessions, you may be able to stop it with dab of S/G.
Keep up with the WC's.
I have some milliporas that will stay with extended polyps, some LPS only at night just because they aren't extending doesn't mean that there is a problem, may be they are getting all they need, are you target feeding any (I don't, just asking)?

 

[pammy]

I've been running the Phosban in the TLF reactor for 4 days now. The phosphates have gone from .1 to being undetectable. I'm sure they're still there, but they must have lowered enough that the test kit isn't picking it up. One thing I noticed a week ago or so, is that it looks like there is a slight dusting of green, which I assume is algae, on all of my milli's. I'm also assuming this will go away after my phosphates have been taken care of. You can't really see the green when the MH is lit, but when the T5's only are lit, it's very visable. Would it be beneficial to leave the lights off for 3 days to kiss this off? Leave off the MH and T5's, or MH only, or leave everything on as usual and the algae will disappear on it's own? How long do you think it will take to see an improvement in color and PE in my Milli's now that I'm running Phosban, and have taken my Coral Beauty out of the tank? Are we talking a couple weeks...months...days????

Thanks! Pam

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
Algae cannot grow on live coral tissue so if you have algae growing on your A. millepora that area has died and should be trimmed off. If the coral is beginning to fluoresce under 420-450nm lighting it is likely due to the reduction in phosphates or an adjustment to your tank lighting and water chemistry. 7-21 days is the average time for most SPS corals to finish their color change.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[pammy]

Thanks Kevin. Ahhh....I didn't know that algae couldn't grow on live coral tissue. That's good to know. The area where I see green, is definitely alive and appears healthy. I think it's probably green on all of the new growth, and I see it only when the T5's only are lit. Definitely looks flourescent. It's on every one of the 6 or 7 of the Milliporas I have. So, does the new growth on SPS' always fluoresce until the new growth matures?
Thanks!
Pam

Hello,
Algae cannot grow on live coral tissue so if you have algae growing on your A. millepora that area has died and should be trimmed off. If the coral is beginning to fluoresce under 420-450nm lighting it is likely due to the reduction in phosphates or an adjustment to your tank lighting and water chemistry. 7-21 days is the average time for most SPS corals to finish their color change.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[kevinpo]

New growth on SPS, especially Acropora corals have less zooxanthellae than the older sections. So usually they are lighter in color or even a different color all together. This is most often apparent in the tips where the most new growth occurs. Zooxanthellae is coffee colored so their numbers/density can change the appearance of the coral dramatically. The increase of zooxanthellae is most often triggered by some stress factor, the most common being lighting spectrum/intensity changes. An example would be an Acropora is 16" from a 400W halide and the color is a light yellow and fluoresces greatly. This coral has very few zooxanthellae. It is then placed 24" from a 150W halide and it turns brown with a green tint with very little fluorescing. The corals response to lower lighting intensity has been to increase the numbers of zooxanthellae masking the color so it can receive more nutrition. This is not to say one color or condition is more healthy, only more aesthetically pleasing to the viewer.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[packer]

You might want to change your phos media fairly soon. At first when your phosphates are high, it gets filled up, saturated, in a short time. A fresh batch would help and then will run longer until it needs changeing. Since phos test kits are not the most reliable and dont detect some types of phosphate at all, I let my tank tell me when its time to change out the media. After a few times, you will know its time simply by the algae on the glass. You should have noticed less glass cleaning by now. When phosphate is on the rise it will shorten the time between glass cleaning, and thats a good time to change the media. Thats what works for me, saves cost on phos tests and I feel more reliable as to true phos level within the tank.

 

[pammy]

Thanks Packer. I think I'll take your advise, and change the Phosban this weekend when it will have been in the tank for 2 weeks. I've been seeing what looks like a diatom bloom on the sandbed for the last couple of months, and that looks to have lessened a lot since adding the phosban. Probably the same as less glass cleaning like you mentioned. Haven't noticed that I'm cleaning the glass less yet, but that sounds like a good way to guage the level of Phosphates. Thanks!
Pam

You might want to change your phos media fairly soon. At first when your phosphates are high, it gets filled up, saturated, in a short time. A fresh batch would help and then will run longer until it needs changeing. Since phos test kits are not the most reliable and dont detect some types of phosphate at all, I let my tank tell me when its time to change out the media. After a few times, you will know its time simply by the algae on the glass. You should have noticed less glass cleaning by now. When phosphate is on the rise it will shorten the time between glass cleaning, and thats a good time to change the media. Thats what works for me, saves cost on phos tests and I feel more reliable as to true phos level within the tank.

 

[pammy]

Ahh...makes sense Kevin. Thanks again for the info.
Pam

New growth on SPS, especially Acropora corals have less zooxanthellae than the older sections. So usually they are lighter in color or even a different color all together. This is most often apparent in the tips where the most new growth occurs. Zooxanthellae is coffee colored so their numbers/density can change the appearance of the coral dramatically. The increase of zooxanthellae is most often triggered by some stress factor, the most common being lighting spectrum/intensity changes. An example would be an Acropora is 16" from a 400W halide and the color is a light yellow and fluoresces greatly. This coral has very few zooxanthellae. It is then placed 24" from a 150W halide and it turns brown with a green tint with very little fluorescing. The corals response to lower lighting intensity has been to increase the numbers of zooxanthellae masking the color so it can receive more nutrition. This is not to say one color or condition is more healthy, only more aesthetically pleasing to the viewer.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[pammy]

I guess I have STN on a few of these Millipora's. I could see it spreading up from the base, and it was progressing daily. I fragged off the good part, and remounted it to the rock, and within a couple of days, I could see the tissue recession starting again. I fragged some more of the good part and re-mounted again. I tested my Phosphates again today, still undetectable. The reactor has been running with Phosban for 11 days now. (Phosphates were .1 before I added the Phosban). Is the cause of the STN most likely from the Phosphates I had and I was too slow adding the Phosban? Is it caused by how I mounted the frags? I tried superglue gel the first time, and Aquamend the second time. What else causes STN ?

One thing I noticed since starting to run the phosban, is that my frogspawn is extended waaaaaay more than it has in a long time!! Still no PE or color on the SPS, but I know that could take time. Hopefully I wasn't too slow taking care of the phosphate issue. Nitrates still at 5.

Thanks, Pam

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
Nitrates, high or low alkalinity, high temperate, high amounts of DOC's, not enough flow, are all factors that by themselves or in various combinations can cause STN. For sensitive Acropora corals nitrates should be undetectable for ideal conditions.

HTH,
Kevin