No skimmer system

[moortim]

I hope I am not opening up an argument on this topic but here goes.
About a month ago my skimmer busted (it was only a seaclone anyway) so I have been running skimmerless without any problem. My phosphate and nitrate is always right at zero. I have a 55 gal with a 29gal sump/refugium. The Refugium has chaeto and a 5-6inch deep sand bed.

What I am looking for are the pro's and con's of running without a skimmer. I think we all know Luke's oppinion but how about a little more detail about it. I would rather have fact than opinion but I know this is on the hairy edge of reality for most reef keepers. I don't have much detritus and everything seems to be running healthy.

Why should I or should I not have a skimmer?

Tim

Edit: I also only have light bio load right now with about 40lb live rock.

 

[Krish]

If you want a war Tim then we'll have one!!!(LOL Joking) Sounds like a great topic that could get a bit crazy, but if everyone sticks to the idea that "what works for you may not work for the other", then I think we'll be fine

In my opinion, I've never tried a skimmerless system. I see what my skimmer produces and find it hard to think I'd want to run a system without it. Some people rely simply on a macro and no skimmer and say, "Well, if I run a skimmer, then my chaeto won't grow as much". What that tells me is the skimmer is removing the stuff that the chaeto needs to grow (excess nutrients) which means it is doing it's job to some degree so why remove it? Just my thoughts on the subject for starters...I still always go with the notion that if it works for you, then by all means go for it

 

[moortim]

If you want a war Tim then we'll have one!!!(LOL Joking) Sounds like a great topic that could get a bit crazy, but if everyone sticks to the idea that "what works for you may not work for the other", then I think we'll be fine

I completely agree, not very many people want to try this way and initially I didn't either but since I got forced into it and can't really afford another skimmer right now I want everyone's take on it.
Keep in mind I am working to setup for clams, if this would affect them in any negative way I want to know that as well.

Tim

 

[Krish]

I completely agree, not very many people want to try this way and initially I didn't either but since I got forced into it and can't really afford another skimmer right now I want everyone's take on it.
Keep in mind I am working to setup for clams, if this would affect them in any negative way I want to know that as well.

Tim

I was once told by a wise person that clams will filter out your water and use up nitrates. May work well for you if your system is doing great now without a skimmer

 

[spongebob lover]

ohh boy i can feel this thread is gonna be a hot one .
hmmm i seriously don't know what to say, i'm still a newb when it comes to use or not use skimmer.... i know that would send me to the ER .
I think that if you're using chaeto and it works for you, then keep going. some people will say .... ohh you need something more than just Chaeto, others will say... that's all you need buddy... dump everything.
I haven't tried Chaeto, but i know one thing in my mind... if someone dares to touch my skimmer... there's gonna be some serious issues (they might even dihirrea:badgrin: ) well after that said... i hope you find the answers you are looking for.

 

[moortim]

I think that if you're using chaeto and it works for you, then keep going. some people will say .... ohh you need something more than just Chaeto, others will say... that's all you need buddy... dump everything.

That's exactly it, there are a lot of people who say "well if it works for you", I want to know why it would work for me, or not.
The other question I would like to know is how many people out there actually do it this way?

The main reason I lean towards getting a skimmer is because everyone with years of experience and really big tanks uses them.

 

[Krish]

That's exactly it, there are a lot of people who say "well if it works for you", I want to know why it would work for me, or not.
The other question I would like to know is how many people out there actually do it this way?

The main reason I lean towards getting a skimmer is because everyone with years of experience and really big tanks uses them.

YUP! The majority of full blown reefs uses a skimmer in their system. What would have been cool is for people to post a picture of their tank and state if they use a skimmer or not. It would be sort of like a poll but with photos. It's really weird how 2 people could have the exact same setup in terms of equimpent right down to fish, but one have success and the other problems. That's why I don't knock what others do and always say go with what works for you. I may ask questions to understand, but that's about it.

 

[wrightme43]

Luke is one of the people to ask on this. LiveforPhysics is his handle. He is very sharp on skimmerless systems. Try to p.m. him.

 

[moortim]

Yes, I would like Luke's take on this, Hey Luke! where are you,
(I will pm him also)

 

[spongebob lover]

This is gonna be like a treat for Luke but i'd also ask Mojo (Mike) he has some good points too .

 

[MikeS]

That's exactly it, there are a lot of people who say "well if it works for you", I want to know why it would work for me, or not.
The other question I would like to know is how many people out there actually do it this way?

Well, every system is different, and tank responses are going to vary depending on your system. Let's look at what you have going on right now...no skimmer, a DSB and chaeto in the sump. Your chaeto is likely dealing with the P ok right now, and the N as well, aided by the DSB (although the DSB is probably not exporting N, simply recycling it back into the system in another form). The two things I would be concerned with at this point is the added nutrient load placed on the biologically based systems (DSB and chaeto) and the fact that you have no actual export of nutrients taking place unless you physically remove or harvest the chaeto along with its bound nutrients.

Biologically based systems are inherintly unstable and unpredictable. With proper care and maintenance, one can usually keep them in a "safe operating range", but they are prone to change. The added nutrient load now placed on them (the DSB in particular) will likely increase the constant flux taking place in it to start with, and probably help to shorten its effective lifespan. I use words like "likely" and "probably"...because everybody's system is different, you may see major flux or relatively little, it's hard to predict. A skimmer will help "lighten the load" so to speak on your biologically based systems.

Also, with the DSB and chaeto, you really don't have any export of nutrients taking place. The exception of course is when you physically remove the chaeto from the system. But as long as it's in there, so are the nutrients. If the algae dies for some reason, those stored nutrients go right back into the system. Again, with a skimmer, you are actually exporting nutrients from the system permanently (unless of course you spill the skimmer cup into the tank )

The main reason I lean towards getting a skimmer is because everyone with years of experience and really big tanks uses them.

And with good reason, my friend . A good skimmer is a simple, very effective means of actually exporting excess nutrients from the tank.

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Moortim the best thing to do to convince you is just by you giving it a shot. That way you dont need to listen to opinions you can have the work in progress right in front of you. You will eventually find out which way you want to go by whatever results you get.


Mike

 

[Skimmy]

in my personal experience and opinion, there arent enough good reasons to run a reef tank without a skimmer, and it seems like a no-brainer to me that in a closed system that you would WANT to filter all impurities out at the expense of depleating your foods, minerals and trace elements. and then simply replentish those foods, minerals and trace elements with the appropriate products.
also, besides the filtration of waste products, the other very important reason for running a skimmer is oxygenation, and gas exchange, everything always perks up with the added oxygen saturation that occures with most skimmers.
also, your talking about a nano reef here, which imo makes it even more vital to skim because of the lack of buffering capacity of your system.
with the advent of modern foods for corals and invertebates, pharmaceutical/analytical grade additives, and refugiums i personally feel pretty comfortable relying on these and waste products from fish(which pass 90% of the nutrient they consume) to feed and maintain the element levels in my closed reef systems with heavy skimming and media (carbon, rowa) filtration. and if your refugiums are gravity fed into the main display, then the amount of microfauna available for the fish and critters increases as well.
as long as you make a few provisions to include a new source for microfauna(a few pounds of fresh cured live rock or sand) in the tank a few times a year. i have no problem with letting my filtration "strip" my water clean, i find that these tanks enjoy the most stability and least algae out of the different methods of reefkeeping i have employed.
but there are so many ways to acheive similar results, and as it has been mentioned here before, many of us speak a different language of methodology based upon the TYPES of corals or fish we keep, so i dont want to downplay the viability of other peoples methodology, this is only based upon my experience on what has worked for me considering the corals i keep, so everyone bare that in mind
and as my name impies, im a skimmer adddict, i got no problem admitting that

 

[moortim]

Here's a new question,
Some of the other similar discussions I have read seem to mention that a skimmer removes the nutrition that the chaeto uses. So why use both?

The answer would seem to me that the skimmer can't remove everything and neither can chaeto (this is of course subjective to each individual system, equipment, bio load ect) so when combining the two you have the best chance of removing the most bad stuff from the water.

Is that a true statement? Otherwise if a skimmer removed everything I couldn't see using chaeto. I know I am talking about a theoretical tank where everything worked exactly as intended, which never happens in real life, but I want to know exactly how everything is supposed to work.

I would SteveS opinion, he always good advice.

 

[DonW]

I'd look at what you want to keep besides fish. I wouldnt try a sps tank but alot of people like Luke have had some luck with softies. SPS to me are just to expensive for trial and error.

Don

 

[moortim]

Thanks for all the input!

I also want to make sure that everyone know's that I am sitting on the fence with this topic, I am not arguing either way. So far the conclusion I am seeing is that both ways can work but using a skimmer decreases the possibility of a disaster if something goes wrong with the biological filtration.
Right now I am leaning toward going without for a few months while I save money for the skimmer I want and then I might re-evaluate my system. If it turns out that going without a skimmer is working then I am sure there are plenty of ways to spend the money.
I still want as many opinions as people are willing to share on this topic.

Tim

 

[MikeS]

Here's a new question,
Some of the other similar discussions I have read seem to mention that a skimmer removes the nutrition that the chaeto uses. So why use both?

The answer would seem to me that the skimmer can't remove everything and neither can chaeto (this is of course subjective to each individual system, equipment, bio load ect) so when combining the two you have the best chance of removing the most bad stuff from the water.

Is that a true statement? Otherwise if a skimmer removed everything I couldn't see using chaeto. I know I am talking about a theoretical tank where everything worked exactly as intended, which never happens in real life, but I want to know exactly how everything is supposed to work.

I would SteveS opinion, he always good advice.

Very good questions...

Here is how I look at it...everything you do in your tank to help deal with or export nutrients should compliment the system as a whole. Relying heavily on one single piece of equipment, or a sump full of algae, or whatever can be a disaster waiting to happen. It's good to have backups.

My system for example...I had a DSB for 5 years. It did what it was supposed to do, but I also had a low bioload, I skimmed, I used carbon, I did frequent water changes, I even dabbled with macroalgae. I think the fact that my setup was fairly diverse is what enabled me to keep a DSB going for 5 years. I didn't rely entirely on the DSB, it was a "compliment" to my system as a whole, as was the skimmer, the carbon, ect...I didn't rely on one single system.

My tank is now BB...same thing...I have a larger, more efficient skimmer, I use more carbon, more flow, and I do more frequent water changes. My tank doesn't rely on the skimmer alone, nor the carbon alone, nor the water changes alone, ect...they all compliment eachother. Granted, I lack the biological "crutch" I had with the DSB and the macroalgae, but the trade-off is that mechanical failures are ususally caught quickly and fixed quickly, where biological ones are not...

Point being...very few black or white areas in this hobby, but lots of shades of grey...just make sure whatever you do compliments the system as a whole...

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Ok lets take a peek. When you dont use a skimmer you loose a form of filtration that removes both particulate, disolved, organic and inorganic Phosphate and Nitrogen based products. When you do this and go with out basically you are going to try to lock up all of the above into living biomass, ex: bacteria, bugs, algae and so on. Some of the nutrients will be burned off by these critters as energy but not much. Now when you feed your tank on a daily basis you are adding more and more biomass, eventually you will run out of room in the tank which will lead to die off's. So you need to perform some kind of active exportation (physically removing some of the biomass) with algae you are going to remove small amounts of P and N, but if this algae can only absorb disolved forms of the nutrients you are not going to get much, instead you will have to wait for it to get composted (reduced) to a form that it can absorb so you can then export it.
When you go with this form of filtration you are putting all your cards into one hand, mother natures hand for which you have no control. Bacteria will bind up P and N and will bloom (natural thing) when they have reached a population that has bound up all the P and N they will begin to die off, at that point you are hoping that all that P and N get taken up by algae in a remote location, now some does but your not going to get it all for sure, so you end up with cyano and other algal forms taking it up in the main tank, they will once again populate until they have taken all of the nutrients, then as with the bacteria the algae will begin to die off and release all of the P and N it has bound up, as thus bacteria once again becomes the next player. This is the natural cycling that occurs in our tanks as well as in the wild, the only difference is that we dont have the scale of critter as the wild does.
You will also get some N and P bound up in other critters to.

So the bottom line is to remove the waste/detritus or to allow it to be bound in biomass. With the skimmer you take off the lid when it becomes full or dirty, with the other system you remove an amount of the total via algae harvest, the balance welllll......that gets taken up by a worm hole and shot into space? hehehe


Mike

 

[4251cpd]

Here is my take on the great debate: I've had a 12 gallon nano up and running for 6 months now. Because of the size running a skimmer 24/7is not really an option. I'm running a mini fuge and a single rice sponge became 150-200 smaller rice sponges in the "sump" area. I show no phosphates, but NO3 is showing 5-10ppm. I will show 2 links that might stir the debate a little bit more. One is from me and the other is an article by Eric Borneman:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13311
http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_net/1197/1197_3.html
Have fun.......

 

[wrightme43]

Ok the balance welllll......that gets taken up by a worm hole and shot into space? hehehe


Mike

LOL that made me think of my ex-wife.