Not Enough Light or Food?

[rjarnold]

Have you considered dosing AA's? I think you need more P and N so those colors start to pop more. I was dosing the complete elos purist line and noticed my colors lightened considerably (low nutrients). I then dosed AA's and Pro skimmer and slowly my sps regained color after a few months.

Good luck!

Jayson

I dose 2 drops of Pro Skimmer every day (save the weekends) and 2 drops of AAs per week.

 

[dailydriven911]

I just realized you were dosing but I would dose the aminos every day as well. I was dosing 2 drops of each every day and saw great results.

 

[dailydriven911]

How are your montis and birdsnest coloration? Mine were somewhat pale until I upped my mg and kh. This seemed to help quite a bit.

 

[rjarnold]

How are your montis and birdsnest coloration? Mine were somewhat pale until I upped my mg and kh. This seemed to help quite a bit.

Don't have any birdsnest, but my monti's seem unaffected by this whole ordeal. As far as I can tell, they've all maintained their colors. I've been trying to up my kh as well, I think mg is probably good since I used to dose a ton of that to get rid of what I thought may have been the start of bryopsis. I still dose it as a precaution But I don't have a test for it, so I don't really know. I can try to up the AA's. There are only about 2 tbsp's of Filtra M left in there now, and the protein skimmer has finally started to pull stuff out again.

 

[rjarnold]

Updating -
Corals still light. Skimmer's been off for almost 3 weeks now. 2 drops of AA and Pro-Skimmer every day. Feeding almost every day. Getting a MH set-up soon.

 

[rjarnold]

I got a light meter today! I'm having issues finding what a T5 set-up *should* output as far as LUX is concerned, but I get anywhere between 31,000-38,000 depending on what bulb I hold the sensor under. The sensor was held just above the water (within inches of the bulbs), I'm pretty sure it's submersible but I am checking on that before submerging it If anyone can point me to LUX outputs for bulbs I'd appreciate it.

 

[rjarnold]

Measured in LUX:

Bottom of tank 6,400.
Middle of tank 11,400.
2" below water surface 18,500.

 

[rjarnold]

This was the new Phoenix 14k MH on my other tank:
30,000 right above water
13,800 2" below surface
7,500 middle of tank

Now I realize that the 14k is a more blue bulb and LUX only reads the visible spectrum. I have 2 blues on my T5s as well, so I'm not sure what this is telling me other than the T5s appear to be putting out more LUX than the MHs. Wish I had a PAR meter :\

 

[jezzeaepi]

This was the new Phoenix 14k MH on my other tank:
30,000 right above water
13,800 2" below surface
7,500 middle of tank

Now I realize that the 14k is a more blue bulb and LUX only reads the visible spectrum. I have 2 blues on my T5s as well, so I'm not sure what this is telling me other than the T5s appear to be putting out more LUX than the MHs. Wish I had a PAR meter :\

It depends a lot on what type of reflectors your using, and where the reading is taken from in relation to the light. For example, it is possible that directly under the light in the center, the T5 may slightly edge out the MH, but as you get further and further away from "center" of the light, readings should tend to favor the MH(assuming a good reflector like lumenarcs or luemnbrights).

Also if its a new MH bulb, it needs to burn-in first before youll get the right readings I believe. Is that a 175 or a 250? One of the nice advantges with T5 is that you seem to have to sacrafice less PAR to go "blue" with your lighting then you do with metal halide. A 10k metal halide can produce 50% more par, while a 10k t5 only pushes about 20% more PAR.

Ive been wanting to get a PAR meter myself for a while now, but I bet your lux readings are more accurate then you would think. There is no Par to Lux conversion since it is different for every bulb, but I did find this: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/par-moles.html
If you scroll down to the second post, titles "Par conversions" you will see a couple of conversions that someone did using a variety of bulbs and both a PAR and Lux meter. Youll notice that they do have different conversions factors, but the range of the conversion factors is fairly small(.017 - .021) so in all actuality, your lux readings are probably within 10% of their true PAR reading for comparrison sake.

Peace

 

[jezzeaepi]

The more I think about it, the more I think it would be a good idea to double check your magnesium levels. You mentioned that you boosted them with tech-m to get rid of bryopsis, but then stopped testing. Perhaps you boosted it really really high, and it still hasnt come all the way down? just a thought

peace

 

[rjarnold]

The more I think about it, the more I think it would be a good idea to double check your magnesium levels. You mentioned that you boosted them with tech-m to get rid of bryopsis, but then stopped testing. Perhaps you boosted it really really high, and it still hasnt come all the way down? just a thought

peace

I never actually tested, just kept adding until the bryopsis went away. I don't have a Mag test, unfortunately, but the same thing's been on my mind since I heard of someone frying their corals by adding too much TechM within a couple of days.

 

[rjarnold]

It depends a lot on what type of reflectors your using, and where the reading is taken from in relation to the light. For example, it is possible that directly under the light in the center, the T5 may slightly edge out the MH, but as you get further and further away from "center" of the light, readings should tend to favor the MH(assuming a good reflector like lumenarcs or luemnbrights).

Also if its a new MH bulb, it needs to burn-in first before youll get the right readings I believe. Is that a 175 or a 250? One of the nice advantges with T5 is that you seem to have to sacrafice less PAR to go "blue" with your lighting then you do with metal halide. A 10k metal halide can produce 50% more par, while a 10k t5 only pushes about 20% more PAR.

Ive been wanting to get a PAR meter myself for a while now, but I bet your lux readings are more accurate then you would think. There is no Par to Lux conversion since it is different for every bulb, but I did find this: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/par-moles.html
If you scroll down to the second post, titles "Par conversions" you will see a couple of conversions that someone did using a variety of bulbs and both a PAR and Lux meter. Youll notice that they do have different conversions factors, but the range of the conversion factors is fairly small(.017 - .021) so in all actuality, your lux readings are probably within 10% of their true PAR reading for comparrison sake.

Peace

The MH is a 150 watt, it was only 2 or 3 days old yesterday, so yeah, probably needs some burn-in time yet.

 

[brandyrb]

I haven't read this whole thing, but figured I'd post my experience with our T5's vs Halides. We have a 300 gal aquarium with 3 400W Halides, used to be Ushio 10K, now running Ushio 14K off of PFO HQI Ballasts in PFO reflectors. Each reflector has 2 24" Blue T5's running on icecap 660's for supplemental lighting.

Before moving our corals from our old 125 gal to the 300 gal, I bought a 40 breeder and a 6 bulb Tek T5 fixture with all the same bulbs as rjarnold. With the addition of a geiseman pure actinic and a 6500K UV lighting bulb. All the water was from our old tank, no changes in water, the bulbs were brand new and the lights were too much for our corals (with them on the bottom of the tank). Some of them faded, others started losing flesh. The birdsnests on the other hand, well:

After moving the corals back under the halides, they came back. They were in the 40 breeder for about a week. Maybe two.

Later on we setup the 40 breeder with its Tek T5 fixture (bulbs still new), water out of our 300 gal display and placed our frags in there. The birdsnests turned the brightest pink I had ever seen. Our Garf Bonsai lost its color.

The frag on the left had been in under the T5s for about a week. The others were just added and purposely placed in the shade.

The bulbs were too much when new even with the lighting fixture as high as it will go on the legs and the corals on the very bottom. After the bulbs have been running for a few months, they are great, then when the bulbs get older, the corals get darker.

I agree 100% it is the lighting. I thought I made a big mistake getting a 6 bulb fixture for a 40 breeder after seeing how my corals reacted to the lighting and wished I would've bought the 4 bulb fixture. I was also under the impression that T5's weren't really enough light for SPS and in my opinion that is a fallacy. I actually think all of my corals look better under the halides except the birdsnests. Next round of T5 bulbs, I'm going more blue in hopes that the new bulbs won't be too much.

This is my new list of bulbs that I'm going to purchase:
3 -- ATI Blue Plus
1 -- UV Lighting Super Actinic
1 -- UV Lighting 10000K AquaSun
1 -- ATI Pro Color

Edit:
I honestly think that 40 breeders don't need many T5 bulbs at all because they are so shallow. I may just put my halides back over my 40 breeder and get a 75 gal for my T5s? Or get the hanging kit and raise the fixture more when I replace the bulbs again.

One more thing. I also have a 36" dual PFO HQI Halide fixture with 2 20000K XM bulbs and 2 Actinic VHO's. That lighting in comparison with the T5's is more mellow! The XM Bulbs were ran for about a month over the 40 breeder and the corals were fine. That is the fixture that I'm thinking about putting back over the 40, but I hate the energy consumption and extra plug-ins required.

 

[brandyrb]

I disagree 100% . See my post above. Just to clarify too, we also fed our corals in the 40 breeder and swapped out the water with the main display to keep the parameters the same.

See this is where I disagree. I doubt your corals would be growing if they were recieving way too much light and being stressed. SPS get the majority of their energy from light, not nutrients in the water, so if the light was poor, they wouldnt be growing. Pale corals with good growth is a symptom of many zeovit systems, and like I said overlighting is not the issue for any of them. The idea of having "nutrients" in the system doesnt mean you have dectable nutrient levels, it means that you have enough life in there that is consuming, and popping so that there is only the most trace amount, but available all day. A "nutrient high" sps system should still have undetectable levels, but is fed frequently.

For exanple, I have a 125g with 8 fish. I feed 4+ frozen cubes twice a day every day(8+cubes a day). Most people would probably consider this a "lot" of nutrients to be adding every day, but my po4 and no3 are 0, and my corals are beautifull. I am getting good growth, and good coloration wether they are 2 inches from the surface, or at the bottom and Im using overdriven 250w MH's in lumenarc's.

As far as T5's go, I have researched them extensivley. During my last job I had several hours each day to search the various reef forums and I read every single t5 thread start to finish. I really dont care to link every single one of them, but none of them put t5 and MH on the same scale when comapred properly. Theres always a 20-40% drop in PAR. Ive even run my own tests using a spectrometer at UW to determine how much intensity and what spectrums degrade over time. I know how they preform, and I personally used a 5 bulb t5 unit over a 40g SPS tank for over a year. That having been said, overlighting was never an issue. My colors were amazing(seriously, ask Classclown how my corals looked when I brought them to his house)and I was getting .5inch growth a month. Corals at the top of the tank grew and colored up as well as those half way down, and my lights were mounted 2.5 inches from the surface.


I have seen corals take a while to color up before, and have sen them go brown or pale from being moved. Just give it time IMHO. I agree with everyone else that it is possible that in the particular instance of your purple plasma, being .5inch from the surface, that recieving "lots of light" is a contributing stress factor, but that doesnt explain the rest of your corals. T5 Par drops very quickly as you work your way downt he water column, so thers no way that the light is causing all of your corals to go pale. Sounds like a tank wide thing, not a particular instance(like your plasma).

If it were my tank, id do this:
Start monitoring your alk daily for about a week, measuring at the same time every day. IME alk instability/imbalance is the number one issue for SPS keepers. If your alk/calc regiment appears to be working fine with no swings from day to day, then add a fish and start feeding daily. You have to go slow with ramping up how much you add. Just use a food little at first, then work your way up to what appears to be a "meals" worth. This should keep your nutirent levels low and give your bacteria time to catch up. After a month or so you should notice a difference imo.

Peace,
Jesse

 

[rjarnold]

Tis an interesting discussion, that is for sure. I was going to say, well, what about the SPS on the ground that are still too light? But then you've also said that the ones on the ground were getting too much light as well.

However, though the T5s had higher LUX values in comparison to the 14k 150watt MH, the LUX values translate to roughly what 250watt PAR values would be under other MHs, at least in the middle of the tank. So, given that these should be comparable, the SPS on the bottom are still too light - why?.

Yeah I don't know at this point I feed and I feed, took out the phosban, took off the skimmer and took out the FiltraM, and now I've (recently) raised the light. I'm still in the process of getting my MH fixture set up but then, if the colors do change, we'll be left knowing it was the light, but... too much or too little? I guess too much if the change in light does bring back their color, because with the LUX values being as high as they are I can't see it being too little *shrugs*

 

[brandyrb]

18" isn't much depth, so not much light is needed to penetrate the water. I was running 2 more bulbs than you and having the same problem actually worse because quite a few pieces of my coral started losing flesh. The birdsnests got very bright pink. The green pocillapora turned yellow. The bonsai pics were also near the bottom of the tank. After the bulbs were ran for a few months, the corals got darker. I'm using the T5s on another 40 breeder now and the bulbs are not nearly as intense as they were when they were new. I put my dual 250W lighting over the frag tank. The XM Bulbs in it are only 1 month old (of actual use), but from what I've read 20K XMs have a low par value.

I personally wouldn't have taken off my skimmer. I would've raised the light fixture and maybe tried a different bulb combination by swapping out the 10K or 12K for another blue or pure actinic. I usually ask Greg Morgan at reefgeek what T5 bulb combinations work best. Last time I went with the white look and next time. It will be blue.

 

[rjarnold]

The skimmer wasn't pulling out anything anyways (it's a crap skimmer, I'll be honest). But then, there are no nitrates or phosphates anyways, even without the skimmer, so I don't see how one could be much help.

 

[jezzeaepi]

I disagree 100% . See my post above. Just to clarify too, we also fed our corals in the 40 breeder and swapped out the water with the main display to keep the parameters the same.

You are comparing a 4 bulb unit to a 6 bulb unit(50% more par). Furthermore you are making a huge assumption that after a tank move, and an environment shift, that it was only the light that cuased your corals to get pale. Sorry but I disagree with that as a valid comparrison. All you have to do is take a par meter and you will see. Theres is no magic, its all in the numbers.

 

[kevinpo]

Hello,
Just to clarify some information. Shallow water Acropora, Pocillopora, Seriatopora, and Stylophora do not require anything but moderate to high light, good alternating water flow, and proper mineralisation. I grew all of these for 3 years in a 90 gallon mounted on egg crate a foot or so below the water surface with no fish and a 400W halide mounted 12" above the tank with 2 - 95W actinic VHO's. I maintained calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium at NSW levels. I performed water changes once a month of 20%. Growth averaged about 1"/month on average.

It is well known that corals will change color in response to changes in light spectrum and intensity. It is also well known that an Acropora when it is brown is no more healthy than when it is bright blue or any shade in between.

Tissue loss can be caused by a wide variety of factors and affect different species even of the same Genus that occur in similar habitats in the wild.
Changes in lighting spectrum and intensity are high on the list of tissue loss and color changes especially sudden changes. 3-6 months time frames are not uncommon for light sensitive corals to adjust. Some SPS corals are very color fast and seldom shift color or lose tissue while others 6" away change dramatically when you put in a new bulb of the same brand and spectrum.

Here's a little story to illustrate my point:
A friend of mine had a 180 gallon with T-5's on 3' and 400W halides on the other 3'. Upon installation the corals instantly looked different but obviously they had not changed color only looked different. Some looked better some so so. Over the next 90 days some of the corals changed dramatically in color. Others changed only slightly. He eventually changed back to halides and instantly the corals looked different again some better and some so so but they did not look like the same corals on the other end of the tank that had been under halides. They eventually changed back and all the corals under the same light looked the same. Also any frags he brought to me from under the T-5's looked very different when I placed them next to the parent coral under my halides. In a few weeks or months they looked exactly like the parent once again. In both cases the corals were quite healthy and grew well just changing color in response to changes in lighting spectrum and intensity.

So the point of this windy ramble is to say that it is not always just a matter of light changes in intensity but also spectral changes, water flow, water clarity, chemistry, nutrient levels, coral combinations (how corals feel about their neighbors), and the interactions between changes in these levels that have an effect on actual color and color rendition.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[kevinpo]

I actually found some old pictures of this setup.

Cheers,
Kevin