Not Enough Light or Food?

[brandyrb]

You are comparing a 4 bulb unit to a 6 bulb unit(50% more par). Furthermore you are making a huge assumption that after a tank move, and an environment shift, that it was only the light that cuased your corals to get pale. Sorry but I disagree with that as a valid comparrison. All you have to do is take a par meter and you will see. Theres is no magic, its all in the numbers.

I am actually relaying my experience in switching from halide lighting to T5s that are brand new bulbs. I have taken frags out of the 300gal display from under 400W 14K Ushios ran on HQIs and placed them in a different aquarium (also 40 breeder) under a 250W 20K XM ran on HQIs and the corals kept their color. This tank has different water parameters than the display.

Whether it is the par or spectrum of the T5 bulbs, I don't know. All I know is the new T5 bulbs made my corals very pale (light) in color. After the bulbs break in for a few months it's not so bad. My corals will still change color under T5 lighting vs. Halides, but not go nearly as pale. The 40 breeder that the frags were switched to mentioned in my first post with pictures attached had the same water from the 300 gal display (no change in parameters). And we consistently swapped the water out to keep it that way. The temperatures were the same, but the flow was obviously different as well as the lighting.

The only comparison I made to the 4 bulb fixture, was to say that I wished I would've bought the 4 bulb fixture instead of 6 because 40 breeders are so shallow and in my opionion don't need much light and 6 bulbs is overkill. I also pointed out that four of our bulbs are the same bulbs being used by the poster. I have three different tanks all with different lighting that I have transferred my corals/frags to and I am 100% convinced the change in color is caused by the lighting for obvious reasons.

Par numbers are only going to tell so much about the lighting, but not how an individual coral is going to react to it. Look at my first pictures. I couldn't have been happier with how the birdsnests look. They were the only ones that approved in the change of lighting. The red cap next to them got very bright too, but then started losing flesh. As for me, I rely on experience.

 

[jezzeaepi]

However, though the T5s had higher LUX values in comparison to the 14k 150watt MH, the LUX values translate to roughly what 250watt PAR values would be under other MHs, at least in the middle of the tank. So, given that these should be comparable, the SPS on the bottom are still too light - why?.

You cant quite extrapolate them out linerally like this:
250watt / 150watt = 1.666666
30000 x 1.66 = 50000 compared to 38,0000
13800 x 1.66 = 22908 comapred to 18,500
7500 x 1.66 = 12450 comapred to 11400


With a 250W bulb, you are going to get greater intensity thus more water penetration. It wont decrease through the water column at the same rate as a 150W. If you want to look at just the light intensity, youll want to remove the factor of variable depth, and use just the number at the top of the surface, or 50,000 vs 38,0000, which showas a substantial difference imho.

 

[jezzeaepi]

I am actually relaying my experience in switching from halide lighting to T5s that are brand new bulbs. I have taken frags out of the 300gal display from under 400W 14K Ushios ran on HQIs and placed them in a different aquarium (also 40 breeder) under a 250W 20K XM ran on HQIs and the corals kept their color. This tank has different water parameters than the display.

Your comparing a crappy par 20k xm to a well balanced t5 set up. They are similar wattages so yes I would expect the T5 setup to slightly edge out the MH due to their greater effeciencies in blue wieghted bulbs. The T5 reflectors are going to spread the light much more evenly. You just cant light a 3 foot space effectivley with MH. In your initial set up with the single PFO pendant, your light was going to be much less evenly distributed, creating hot spots and cold spots.

Whether it is the par or spectrum of the T5 bulbs, I don't know. All I know is the new T5 bulbs made my corals very pale (light) in color. After the bulbs break in for a few months it's not so bad. My corals will still change color under T5 lighting vs. Halides, but not go nearly as pale.

Or maybe changing your lightbulbs multiple times caused them to go pale? Or maybe they just appeared to be much more different then they actually were due to different bulb spectrums. I would imagine your t5 set up, specially with a nasty 6500 bulb, will look whiter and more washed out then 20k or 14k's.

The only comparison I made to the 4 bulb fixture, was to say that I wished I would've bought the 4 bulb fixture instead of 6...

No you disagreed with my statement that was based on the 4 bulb unit that Rj is using. So yes you did compare the two.

Par numbers are only going to tell so much about the lighting, but not how an individual coral is going to react to it. .... As for me, I rely on experience.

Par numbers are a lot more usefull then you think. The problem is that we dont know what par every coral wants. For example, your birdsnest grew well and colored up nicely. Is that because it likes a really high level of par? Then why didnt more corals respond better, many do well in very high par. Perhaps your par was a little lower, and it preferred a more mid level par, and that mid level par stressed out your other corals and caused them to turn pale. Its a complex subject. Im not going to doubt your experience, but there is mechanisms behind your experience, which is what I am attempting to explain.

 

[brandyrb]

I didn't change the light bulbs at all in the T5 fixture if that's what you're referring to.

I disagreed with your statement that the pale corals weren't caused by the T5 lighting.

I didn't say that par numbers aren't useful, but they don't tell the whole story. If you're going to compare par values, you should also be comparing the par of each individual bulb in the T5 fixture as each bulb puts out a different amount of par and a different spectrum.

The 250W XM bulbs I am referring to are a lower par bulb, but also being run of HQI's which overdrives them plus 2 actinic VHOs for supplemental lighting. And I used two 250W bulbs, not one.

My 300 gal display uses three 400W 14K Ushios also run on HQIs and these bulbs do not have poor par values plus I use two Geisemann Atinic+ T5s for supplemental lighting. My bonsai colony is approx. 16" away from one of the halides.

You're making a lot of guesses about my system(s) and rjarnolds and even stated yourself that you're scratching your head about this. I was kindly offering my experience and disagreeing that it's not the change in lighting.

That's all from me. Just trying to help out a fellow reefer. Take it or leave it.

 

[Jay03GT]

I didn't change the light bulbs at all in the T5 fixture if that's what you're referring to.

I disagreed with your statement that the pale corals weren't caused by the T5 lighting.

I didn't say that par numbers aren't useful, but they don't tell the whole story. If you're going to compare par values, you should also be comparing the par of each individual bulb in the T5 fixture as each bulb puts out a different amount of par and a different spectrum.

The 250W XM bulbs I am referring to are a lower par bulb, but also being run of HQI's which overdrives them plus 2 actinic VHOs for supplemental lighting. And I used two 250W bulbs, not one.

My 300 gal display uses three 400W 14K Ushios also run on HQIs and these bulbs do not have poor par values plus I use two Geisemann Atinic+ T5s for supplemental lighting. My bonsai colony is approx. 16" away from one of the halides.

You're making a lot of guesses about my system(s) and rjarnolds and even stated yourself that you're scratching your head about this. I was kindly offering my experience and disagreeing that it's not the change in lighting.

That's all from me. Just trying to help out a fellow reefer. Take it or leave it.

I don't think your example works very well because you changed tanks. If you had put T5's over your 300 and had this happen, it would be different. Putting a 6 bulb Tek fixture over a 40B is a massive amount of light. Depending on your ballast that is basically sticking a 250MH 3 inches off the water, maybe more.

IME, I recently had an ORA Red Planet that the colors were starting to get "lighter" on. I had placed it 2/3 of the way down in my 120 hoping to retain the green coloration of the base. I noticed the colors fading, and so I re-worked my flow some to give it better flow, and the coloration came back. I can't say that was the primary reason, but it happened in just a matter of a few days. For me that has been the hardest thing to get right with SPS, finding and balancing the needs of one with the needs of the next. Some like alot more flow than others, and it is all part of the "beat your head against the wall" that can be reefkeeping. But there is nothing more rewarding.

 

[brandyrb]

It was a different tank, but the same water as the 300, so my point there was there was no change in water chemistry, just light and flow.

Edit: I also agree that a 6 bulb TEK is a lot of light for a 40 breeder. Before buying the TEK fixture, I was under the impression that T5s were best used in shallow tanks and figured the more the better. I still wish I would've bought the 4 bulb fixture, but it's too late now.

 

[jezzeaepi]

So you are saying then that 236 watts of T5 is brighter then 500 watts of metal halide? that sir is magic.

 

[brandyrb]

So you are saying then that 236 watts of T5 is brighter then 500 watts of metal halide? that sir is magic.

Who are you talking to? I didn't figure it was me because I'm not a sir and I didn't say 236 actually 234 watts of light is brighter than 500 watts.

It got me wondering though if there would be much difference with two 250W halides vs 234W of T5s because with two halides, they are each lighting a different side of the tank where as the T5s disperse light the whole distance.?

 

[jezzeaepi]

I didn't say 236 actually 234 watts of light is brighter than 500 watts.

Oh yah really?

The 250W XM bulbs I am referring to are a lower par bulb, but also being run of HQI's which overdrives them plus 2 actinic VHOs for supplemental lighting. And I used two 250W bulbs, not one.

There you are saying that you used 2 250W metal halides, then you switched to t5's and then they lightened up because there was too much light. Thats your argument. Sorry, but its wrong.

 

[brandyrb]

Oh yah really?

Yeah, really, lol.

There you are saying that you used 2 250W metal halides, then you switched to t5's and then they lightened up because there was too much light. Thats your argument. Sorry, but its wrong.

Nope, not what I said at all...

I moved the Garf Bonsai frags out from under a 400W 14K Ushio with 2 24" T5s approx. 16" away from the halide to the frag tank that was using the 6 bulb Tek T5 fixture and the coral not in the shade turned the light faded purple shown in my pic. (This tank had the same water as the 300 the frags came from). Same water chemistry, different lighting and different flow.

I had also taken frags out of my 300gal display including a Garf Bonsai and put them into a "different" 40 breeder running the 2 250W 20K XMs and two VHOs and the frags didn't lose their color. These bulbs were also new. This tank was not using the same water as the 300. Different water chemistry, lighting, etc.

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Later on, I decided to put the T5s over the 40breeder that was using the 2 250W XMs because I didn't want as much energy consumption and didn't like the blue look of the bulbs, The T5s were a few months old of actual use at this time and the corals didn't fade when I made the switch. The T5 bulbs are older now and over my other tank that is mainly lps and zoas. The dual 250W XM fixture is currently sitting over my frag tank that is not being used.

 

[jezzeaepi]

I moved the Garf Bonsai frags out from under a 400W 14K Ushio with 2 24" T5s approx. 16" away from the halide to the frag tank that was using the 6 bulb Tek T5 fixture and the coral not in the shade turned the light faded purple shown in my pic. (This tank had the same water as the 300 the frags came from). Same water chemistry, different lighting and different flow.

I had also taken frags out of my 300gal display including a Garf Bonsai and put them into a "different" 40 breeder running the 2 250W 20K XMs and two VHOs and the frags didn't lose their color. These bulbs were also new. This tank was not using the same water as the 300. Different water chemistry, lighting, etc.

There you are again repeateing my point. I may have confused your experiment, but your claim remains the same.

You are saying you put the frags in a tank with t5's only and they lightened up because the t5's put out so much light in your opinion.
Yet when you put frags from the same colonies in a different metal halide tank with twice the light, they didnt lighten up.

Thats your experiment. You are changing the variable of the light which is either a 234w t5 unit or a 500 watt matel halide setup. And your claim is that the 234 watt set up was too bright and bleached your corals.

 

[rjarnold]

Oooooooooooookay, how about we just cool down and wait until I put on the MHs and see what happens.

 

[brandyrb]

There you are again repeateing my point. I may have confused your experiment, but your claim remains the same.

You are saying you put the frags in a tank with t5's only and they lightened up because the t5's put out so much light in your opinion.
Yet when you put frags from the same colonies in a different metal halide tank with twice the light, they didnt lighten up.

Thats your experiment. You are changing the variable of the light which is either a 234w t5 unit or a 500 watt matel halide setup. And your claim is that the 234 watt set up was too bright and bleached your corals.

My experience is that when the T5 bulbs are new, they made my SPS corals very pale in a 40 breeder, with the same water parameters as the display the corals came from under a 400W halide. Once the T5 bulbs have been running for a while, the corals get darker and look really nice. So in my opinion and experience that it is more likely the new T5 bulbs rjarnold is running vs water chemistry. As I said before take it or leave it.

I can see you are one who likes to debate and that's fine, but I doubt either of us is being very helpful beyond of our posts so far in this thread. Best of luck figuring it out rjarnold.

 

[jezzeaepi]

I can see you are one who likes to debate and that's fine, but I doubt either of us is being very helpful beyond of our posts so far in this thread. Best of luck figuring it out rjarnold.

You are right, my love for debate gets the best of me. My appologees to rj.



Have you tested the magnesium yet? Id still put that high on my list as a possible cause.

 

[rjarnold]

You are right, my love for debate gets the best of me. My appologees to rj.



Have you tested the magnesium yet? Id still put that high on my list as a possible cause.

Nope, still don't have a kit :\

 

[rjarnold]

I think I'm going to finalize this thread, finally Almost all my corals have regained their original colors. The reason for this? Well, of course without rigid scientific measurements, controls, etc., one will never know for sure. However, the colors were regained noticeably after the T5 fixture was *raised*. The only other thing changed at that time was the addition of one drop of iodine per week. After some color was regained when the fixture was raised, it was raised again and even more color was regained. During this time period I had basically gone back down to feeding very little and all but forgot about the Elos Omega amino acids and Pro Skimmer drops. I'm just bad at adding things, period. Anyways, there still is no skimmer on the tank, just a tiny bit of FiltraM, charcoal, and a large HOB refugium filled with chaeto (and a frogfish). This fish bioload is probably less than what I had when I started this thread.

So take it for what you will. I feel I should have trusted to Kevin more at the beginning I did lower one of my corals back then but had it RTN on me for apparently no reason, so I just did not trust doing it again. I've moved that coral around since then and it's been fine, and the little frags I got from when it RTN'd did well also.

I was talking to a person a couple of weeks ago who had just set up a frag tank along side his larger tank that has MH's on it. The frag tank has T5s on it and all the corals turned really light. The water parameters are the same since the same water flows through both. Perhaps if he raises his T5s it will be a better indicator, though it sounds like that 'experiment' was tried in the past and did work.

 

[dailydriven911]

I think I'm going to finalize this thread, finally Almost all my corals have regained their original colors. The reason for this? Well, of course without rigid scientific measurements, controls, etc., one will never know for sure. However, the colors were regained noticeably after the T5 fixture was *raised*. The only other thing changed at that time was the addition of one drop of iodine per week. After some color was regained when the fixture was raised, it was raised again and even more color was regained. During this time period I had basically gone back down to feeding very little and all but forgot about the Elos Omega amino acids and Pro Skimmer drops. I'm just bad at adding things, period. Anyways, there still is no skimmer on the tank, just a tiny bit of FiltraM, charcoal, and a large HOB refugium filled with chaeto (and a frogfish). This fish bioload is probably less than what I had when I started this thread.

So take it for what you will. I feel I should have trusted to Kevin more at the beginning I did lower one of my corals back then but had it RTN on me for apparently no reason, so I just did not trust doing it again. I've moved that coral around since then and it's been fine, and the little frags I got from when it RTN'd did well also.

I was talking to a person a couple of weeks ago who had just set up a frag tank along side his larger tank that has MH's on it. The frag tank has T5s on it and all the corals turned really light. The water parameters are the same since the same water flows through both. Perhaps if he raises his T5s it will be a better indicator, though it sounds like that 'experiment' was tried in the past and did work.

I'm glad things are back to normal now! I've been doing alot of reading on the proper amount of photoperiod for corals and that to much light for too long will lighten corals considerably. I'm pretty sure that my 250w lumenarc sitting 6" off the water for 12 hrs/day was the contributing factor that slowly lightened my corals over time. With my new tank the mh is only on for about 8hours and the t-5's 10 hrs. I'm experimenting with this for awhile and will increase or decrease the photoperiod as needed. Thanks for the update!

 

[rjarnold]

Pictures for Comparison:
Plum Crazy

Now:

ORA Chips

Now:

And lastly, the Teal Stag

Glad to have photos - sometimes it seems like these things don't grow until you look back and go 'ohhhh, it WAS smaller!'

 

[roscoe]

I''ve always had my halides on for 8hrs and my actinics for 10hr. I've recently reduced the halides down to 7hrs and kept the actinics at 10hrs. I just wanted to see what would happen. With just 1hr reduction in my halides I don't have to clean my glass for a full 6 or 7 days when before it was every 3-4 days. Everything else seems to look the same although it has only been 2 weeks since I reduced the halide lighting. I have to say a few of my SPS had a little growth spurt in that time period and absolutly no color loss in fact I think they are a little brighter in color. It might just be my imagination though:lol:.

 

[dailydriven911]

Pictures for Comparison:
Plum Crazy

Now:

ORA Chips

Now:

And lastly, the Teal Stag

Glad to have photos - sometimes it seems like these things don't grow until you look back and go 'ohhhh, it WAS smaller!'

Wow what a difference moving the lights up makes! PE looks better to or maybe it's just the increased coloring.