ph issues

[Workaholic]

Ok, I picked up a mandarin for my nano yesterday and it didn't even make it 24hrs so I decided to check my water parameters and this is what I got.

Ph: ~7.7
DKH: 12deg
Nitrate: 0
Phosphate: 0
Calcium: 400ppm
Salinity: 1.026

The only thing I could find wrong is that my ph is low. I hadn't checked in quite a while due to all my corals doing great so I hadn't thought anything was wrong. The mandarin is the first fish to go in my 6month old nano. What would you all recommend to up the ph? I was thinking of using a kalk drip. All though I have c-balance that I have been dosing the tank with usually 5ml each daily. These params are after not dosing c-balance for 3 days to see if there is a benefit to the c-balance I am going to start dosing again and test params daily for the next couple days. Do you all think C-balance will be enough to get the ph up? or should I look into doing a kalk drip to keep it up and stable?

Thanks,
Tom

 

[boosted306]

People are going to choke when I say this put use a buffer. Mix it up well in a cup and drip it. Don't use to much or it will raise alkalinity to high.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Ok, I picked up a mandarin for my nano yesterday and it didn't even make it 24hrs

Sorry for your loss but these fish will not survive long in ANY nano even if you get a healthy one and the tank is mature. Not enough natural food.
IMO if your ph is low, the nitrate reading is suspect

 

[Ed Hahn]

One thing that comes to mind for me when people say Ph is Magnesium. Magnesium usually stabilizes ph and alkalinity. I recommend checking your Mag level.

 

[Antinanoreef]

A ph of 7.7 is a little low and is probably a testing error. Ph is co2 dependant for lack of better words. Most ph issues are either a inaccurate test or excess room co2. Do not dose ph buffers as they will raise alk and your alk is already fine at 12dkh. As far as the fish goes it was either unhealthy to begin with or was mishandled and or not acclimated correctly.

ANR

 

[boosted306]

A ph of 7.7 is a little low and is probably a testing error. Ph is co2 dependant for lack of better words. Most ph issues are either a inaccurate test or excess room co2. Do not dose ph buffers as they will raise alk and your alk is already fine at 12dkh. As far as the fish goes it was either unhealthy to begin with or was mishandled and or not acclimated correctly.

ANR

absolutely agree....

 

[busdriver]

I agree with most except for the testing error part, my mag was low this past summer (took me a bit to figure that one out) and my ph was as low as 7.4-7.5. it was more than once tested at my LFS...
and any nano is too small for those fish, one might be able to do it safely in a 55. I did keep one in my 250 l (66 US gal) tank.

 

[Workaholic]

Ok, since the death of the mandarin is the hot part of the topic. I know that typically a nano is way too small for these fish, its not the first time I have kept them. I have even had a bonded pair before. The reason I decided to give it a shot is because I had been informed by a very reputable LFS that they had good luck with them eating prawn roe and also people had been known to dose tiger pods every month to make sure they had enough food while weaning them onto prepared food. Heck the bonded pair I had back in the day ate frozen brine. I thought I would give it a shot and if I couldn't get him to do well on prepared food that I would find a more apropriate home for him. Chances are he just wasn't up for the move as I know they can be touchy fish.

My main concern is my ph and how I would be able to bring it up with raising my alk since it is just where I want it.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Herefishyfishy]

If the Alk is high and stable, and the PH is low, either one or more test are off, there is too much CO2 from lack of ventilation or your acids from pollutants is higher than being tested (nitrates/phosphates.) Thus bringing us back to where we started...

On a side note, just because a mandarin will eat prepared foods doesn't mean they shouldn't be predominantly fed their natural diet. If they have done so well, why did you need more?

Sorry if I come across wrong, I am just trying to be helpful in my own way.

Here is a link to an advanced article that will give you all the solutions.

Solutions to pH Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2002/chem.htm

 

[Workaholic]

If the Alk is high and stable, and the PH is low, either one or more test are off, there is too much CO2 from lack of ventilation or your acids from pollutants is higher than being tested (nitrates/phosphates.) Thus bringing us back to where we started...

On a side note, just because a mandarin will eat prepared foods doesn't mean they shouldn't be predominantly fed their natural diet. If they have done so well, why did you need more?

Sorry if I come across wrong, I am just trying to be helpful in my own way.

Here is a link to an advanced article that will give you all the solutions.

Solutions to pH Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2002/chem.htm

They were mandarins that I had in past tanks years ago. You didn't come across wrong I know you're just trying to help. I'm actually going to bring a sample of my water into barrier and have the guys their test it and see if my tests are off.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[oldsaint]

Here is a link to an advanced article that will give you all the solutions.

Solutions to pH Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...ne2002/chem.htm

Hey Fishy noticed the link wasn't working. Figured you meant to post this one.

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Hey Fishy noticed the link wasn't working. Figured you meant to post this one.

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

Thanks, you are a saint!

 

[oldsaint]

Thanks, you are a saint!

lol it's just a cover up for my villainous alter ego. :evil:

 

[Boomer]

First Tom, I highly doubt it is a pH issue at all. It is better to look at Temp or Salinity differences. Did you acclimate it ? How long did you acclimate it ? What was the bag temp vs the tank temp ? What was the LFS Salinity ? These are scaleless fish.

 

[Workaholic]

Ok here's exactly what happened. I picked the fish up at the LFS, it took me about 30min to drive home. When I got home the first thing I did was put the fish bag and all in the tank and let the bag soak to start acclimating to the temp, then 15 min later I would dunk the top of the bag to add some tank water. I did this 2 more times at 15 min intervals then removed the bag from the tank and serparted the fist from the water and added just the fish to the tank. I called the lfs and their slinity was 1.022 and mine is 1.026. As for bag temp vs the tank temp I do not know.

Thannks,
Tom

 

[jezzeaepi]

PH is an issue thats really a non issue imho. Once you have your alkalinity, calcium, salinity, and magenesium at the right levels, then your PH is what it is.

Theres no point in trying to "aim" for a PH, because your PH is constantly changing anyways. Mine fluctuates from 7.85 to 8.15 from throughout the day, so if I took a reading in the morning right before my lights come on, it would be 7.85, and right before lights turn off it would be 8.15. My old tank without a co2 reactor fluctuated form 8.1 to 8.4. Pretty much everyons tank fluctuates, so when you take a "ph reading" you are only getting the info for that one period of time, which in the end tells you nothing about your water chemistry.

If your PH is always on the low side, then that tells you that your co2 leves are high. Usually this results from using a calcium reactor, or from high indoor co2 levels. Many tanks show good growth and coloration despite having low PH, but in theory your corals will do better at NSW PH(8.3).

Theres really only a few ways to raise your PH, and none of them involve using "ph buffers" which you should promptly throw away. All buffers do is boost your alk(whi mess up your alk/calcium balance) in order to give you a temporary PH boost, which is counter-productive. Your goal is to balance alk/calc, not reach a certain PH. That being said, there are a few things you can try to raise overall PH, but its really not a issue to stress about. If you can do these things, try em, if not, oh well.

Ways to raise PH:
A.You can try to open the windows more often to get more fresh air. This will lower indoor CO2 levels, which should bring up your PH.
B.Run an airline from your skimmer to the outside in order to constatnly pull in fresh air and mix it with your tank water.
c.Run a refugium with a reverse or 24 hour lighting schedule.
d.Start dosing kalkwasser as part of your calcium/alkalinity maintenance.

Doing all 4 of those will most likely take you to "normal" PH readings. In the end though, like I said, PH is just a small component of your water chemistry and doesnt effect your corals all that much as long as your in the 7.7-8.5 range.

Your inital reading of 7.7 is almost impossible given your alkalinity reading. I cant find the link at the moment, but there is a graph that shows PH as a function of both co2 levels, and alkalinity levels. If your calcium is 400 and alkalinity is 12, then you would need sucha high level of c02 in your tank that it would almost be pretty much impossible to achieve without using a calcium reactor. And if you are using a calcium reactor, then low ph is to be expected and I wouldnt worry about it.

PH never makes or breaks a tank.

Peace

 

[Boomer]

That is an awful big change in salinity in 3/4 of an hr.

I cant find the link at the moment, but there is a graph that shows PH as a function of both co2 levels, and alkalinity levels.


Not at all jezze

http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2Level.htm

CO2 has no effect on Alk and Alk has not effect on CO2. One can have any Alk and if CO2 enters the pH will go down with no change in ALk. You can prove this by taking a glass at a pH of 8.2 and a Alk of say 4 and then blow in the glass with a straw and remeasure the pH and Alk. The pH will have crashed from the CO2 from your breath but the Alk will be the same. You can also do this some what visually by putting some pH indicator in glass and watch it change color to a low pH before your eyes.

He may have a testing error but then again he may not. He needs to retest.

 

[jezzeaepi]

CO2 has no effect on Alk and Alk has not effect on CO2. One can have any Alk and if CO2 enters the pH will go down with no change in ALk. You can prove this by taking a glass at a pH of 8.2 and a Alk of say 4 and then blow in the glass with a straw and remeasure the pH and Alk. The pH will have crashed from the CO2 from your breath but the Alk will be the same. You can also do this some what visually by putting some pH indicator in glass and watch it change color to a low pH before your eyes.

He may have a testing error but then again he may not. He needs to retest.

Im not trying to say that alk and Co2 effect eachother, rather that together, they determine your PH.

In practice in the acutal home aquaria, if you had a dkh of 12, you would be really hard pressed to drive your ph all the way down to 7.7 without a calcium reactor.

 

[Workaholic]

To clarify I am not running a calcium reactor and I did test the ph multiple times to get the same reading both times.

Tom

 

[Boomer]

Correct, if you know the pH and Alk you can calculate the pH or if you know the CO2 and Alk you can calclate the pH, etc.. They are some times called "Buch-Park" equations. However, you must certainly can drive the pH down to 7.7 with his Alk. No matter what the Alk is it has no effect on keeping the pH up when CO2 enters the system. I have seen many posts with parameters like his, do to high room air CO2, especially in the winter or poorly maintained tanks form organic break down which yields CO2 or heavy fish loads and or you are adding buffers too bring the pH up, especially BS. At a pH of 8.2, 8.1, 7.9 etc, when all have the same Alk, be it low or high, they will all drop to the same pH from the same amount of CO2. The only thing a higher Alk does for CO2 is it causes the pH to drop slower over a set time. As I said he *may have a testing error.

. I cant find the link at the moment, but there is a graph that shows PH as a function of both co2 levels

These ONLY deal with CO2 when it is in equilibrium with atmospheric air and tanks rarely are and even streams, lakes and the ocean often are not. Those tables are also only for FW, as Seawater is another beast do to Salinity. There is such a table for FW ( link below) and even that is very misleading. There is no such thing for Seawater, unless you are dealing with NSW @ SSTP. And I have never seen such and this is my favorite subject as Randy knows . I have posted many equations and links on this subject on RC. If you look at Randy's there are just examples that *if........

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm