ph issues

[jezzeaepi]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

 

[Boomer]

As I said an example. That graph does not say you can not have a pH 7.9 with an Alk 4 meq . It is showing that if the pH was 8.1 and the Alk was 3 meq you would have 700 ppm CO2 at SSTP. Go play with that calculator I posted and you will see. Also, take note that the 700 ppm ( actually microatmospheres) is not CO2 in Seawater, it is CO2 in the atmosphere. The actual CO2 in the water at that pH and Alk is 1.4 ppm CO2 dissolved in seawater. If the Alk was 4 and the pH 7.7 there is 3.0 ppm CO2 in seawater, which is what Workaholic has. If the pH was 7.7 and Alk 1 meq the CO2 is 0.7 ppm CO2. When you increase the Alk at the same pH there is more CO2 not less. And that 350 ppm is std NSW. If there was or is more CO2 then he could have plotted another graph to the left which could have shown pH 7.7 Alk 4 and CO2 say 3,000 ppm. I have seen that plot many times by Randy. I told Randy after he wrote it he should not have given atm CO2, as it will be confusing when one looks up CO2 in NSW and sees it is only 0.35-0.45 ppm CO2 in seawater ( depending on who's equation you go by). However, that 350 ppm/microatm can be converted to Seawater which ends up about ~ 0.35 ppm -0.45 ppm, at 25 C and 35 ppt or SSTP. On the avg is it Atm in ppm / 1000 = ppm in seawater.

Take note, from Randy's article

a pH value of 8.5 with a total alkalinity of only 3 meq/L. In this case, driving more CO2 from "normal air" into the water would lower the pH to about 8.2-8.3 while maintaining the same alkalinity.

So, if we had a pH of 8.0 and an Alk of 4 and drove more CO2 we would get a pH of 7.7-7.8 while maintaing the same Alkalinity.

All what I have posted Jezze is std Carbonate-CO2 Seawater Chemistry, found in any book on that subject. And I have two of them to include 5 on Seawater Chemistry in general. There is even a program on CO2 for seawater.

http://cdiac.ornl.gov/oceans/co2rprt.html

 

[Ed Hahn]

Hey Tom,
Years ago Terry Bartelme visited us in Tri-cities. He explained to us that fish stress inside the bag producing amonia. Since they are in a sealed bag, there is no gas exchange. The gas exchange happens as soon as you open the bag. The ph drops very rapidly. This causes stress to animals. Possibly burning gill plates of fish. It may not be visible right away. But the fish dies a few days later. This is called post tramatic Stress syndrome.

Here is what I suggest. Some stores will inject pure oxygen into bag. I love those stores. Here is another method, open the bag or transport animal in a container with air or some device for water movement to get that oxygen going. If you do transport a lot of animals, I suggest a PH pen and temperature monitor.
The sad thing about this happening is, that often hobbyist blame LFS for dead fish because of this. We are all learning. When mistakes are pointed out its sometimes hard to swallow. But If I can inject that The thought is if we can save losses as a group, We all gain. I am sorry about your loss. Good luck in the future.

Sincerely,
Ed

 

[Workaholic]

Hey Tom,
Years ago Terry Bartelme visited us in Tri-cities. He explained to us that fish stress inside the bag producing amonia. Since they are in a sealed bag, there is no gas exchange. The gas exchange happens as soon as you open the bag. The ph drops very rapidly. This causes stress to animals. Possibly burning gill plates of fish. It may not be visible right away. But the fish dies a few days later. This is called post tramatic Stress syndrome.

Here is what I suggest. Some stores will inject pure oxygen into bag. I love those stores. Here is another method, open the bag or transport animal in a container with air or some device for water movement to get that oxygen going. If you do transport a lot of animals, I suggest a PH pen and temperature monitor.
The sad thing about this happening is, that often hobbyist blame LFS for dead fish because of this. We are all learning. When mistakes are pointed out its sometimes hard to swallow. But If I can inject that The thought is if we can save losses as a group, We all gain. I am sorry about your loss. Good luck in the future.

Sincerely,
Ed

Thanks ed, In my case the LFS did inject oxygen into the bag. Yet another reason why I like going to this LFS, in fact its the only store I really go get anything. Everything is occasionally purchased online but mostly from local reefers.

In regards to the C02: Are these levels that you guys are talking about even possible? The reason that I ask is because I live in a 1300sq ft. house with just myself, my brother and my dog. The room that the tank is in nearly always has the door open. I understand that you folks understand much more about the chemistry of the water than I. Which is why I started this thread, I figured i've been playing with reefs for 10 years now I should figured out some of the more complex things about it and consequently make myself better at doing it.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Herefishyfishy]

If the door is open to the OUTSIDE air, probably not a CO2 problem unless gas exchange is not sufficient relative to the fish consumption. Have enough water circulation at the top of the tank? A good skimmer? What type test kits?

 

[Workaholic]

If the door is open to the OUTSIDE air, probably not a CO2 problem unless gas exchange is not sufficient relative to the fish consumption. Have enough water circulation at the top of the tank? A good skimmer? What type test kits?

Well not open to outside air. As for skimmer its a modded cpr backpack with a rio 1100 pump. additional circulation comes from a koralia nano. The ph kit was a salifert and the rest were API.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Make sure your Koralia is creating turbulance at the top of the tank. More is better up to a point :>)

I don't have much confidence in the APIs, the salifort is typically accurate.

 

[Antinanoreef]

Test kits even salifert are not overly accurate a probe/meter is a better option. Co2 is an issue for every reef including real reefs. I doubt co2 is dropping the tank as low as stated. I would test it with a meter if I was concerned.
If your not using a carx or dosing lots of high ph additives I'd never even check ph.

ANR

 

[Ed Hahn]

Tom,
There are so many invisible unforseen things in each aquaria. Each aquarium is different. We learn that need water movement. We learn that A clear water surface with out a films is a needed to sustain gas exchange. WE learned that we are trapping gas when our tank are sealed with glass or plastic covers. I do not think very many people look at surface water as often as they should. We learn to clean those overflows, make the water move on surface to promote oxygen, We also learn that during winter time our CO2 is more abundant because we are inside more and house is closed more. We learn we have to clean air tube of our skimmer more frequently during winter. A lot of people run refugeum with lighting with lots of macroalgae24/7 in winter time. But the fun thing is we are all learning.

I hope something from one of us hits your issue to prevent any more further losses.

 

[Boomer]

All good points guys. I too still question the pH. If it was warm enough outside you could open a window to see how much the shift in pH is or take a glass outside of water and aerate it to see the shift. You will often see in the winter in cooler climates that when people have parties the pH of a tank drops like a rock from CO2. One can say the same thing in warm climates using AC.

This gets into the issue of high room air CO2

Indoor CO2 Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/short.htm

Ed


note;

The gas exchange happens as soon as you open the bag. The ph drops very rapidly.

This *depends on which gas it is. Often bags are very high in CO2 which gives a low pH in the bag and when you open the bag the pH goes through the roof as CO2 leaves. If it ammonia gas leaving and the bag has low CO2 then the pH goes down, as ammonia water gives high pH and when t leaves it will give a low pH. Most deaths in shipping bags are CO2 related, as it causes blood acidosis. IMHO his issue was Salinity going from 1.022 to 1.026 in 45 min.

Here is an old post of mine just brought up on RC on this issue.

Shipping bag chemistry is a very complicate issue. Most deaths are not from ammonia but hyperoxic and hypercapnic conditions. I explained this here long ago. It is covered in great detail in Spotte, 1979, Seawater Systems: The Captive Environment.

Having the water hyperoxic, like most bags, just causes a dysfunctions the Bohr and Root Effect . These two physiological functions determine how much O2 is stored and released. A fishes respiration rate is a function of the DO in water. The more there is the slower the rate is and usually dependent on nothing else. As the CO2 increases in the bag there is a shift in the paCO2 and pwCO2. Meaning that in time the fish can not remove the CO2 from its blood which ends up turning acidic. The fish "calls" for more O2 in its blood physiology, which it gets, due to the Bohr and Root Effect. However, the fishes gills see that the O2 in the water is high, so the respiration rate does not pick up and now the fishes blood is low in O2, low pH and high in CO2. So, the Bohr and Root Effect have ended up releasing, prematurally, all the O2. The fish now die from blood acidosis, due to hypercapnic and hypoxia condition, brought about by hyperoxic water.


Whether or not a fish dies in a bag, from floating or not floating, is call caused by diffusion rates of CO2 and what happens to its blood chemistry. Floating a bag can kill a fish just as fast as not floating it. If the bag is very high in CO2 it will diffuses out of the bag faster when in water, at the junction of the bag water interface. This can cause a rapid shift in pH. Opening the bag in this case, in air/non-floating, cause less of a shift in the pH.

The above is all from shipping fish and not form the LFS to your house. When it comes to LFS fish it is another issue. It s not EVER, IMHO, the ammonia or CO2, it is the salinity and more so the temperature. This is where the acclimation comes from, it is for Salinity and Temperature. If the salinity and temperature of the bag are the same , DUMP fish in tank

To warm of tank water and cool bag water will make the fish some what hyperactive, if just dumped i.e. Warm bag to cool tank is a No-No, it is much more stressful and the fish often just "crash" to the bottom. To high a Salinity will cause the fish to over mucate and its "skin" can't "breathe" right. Warm water to cold water is about the worst thing you can do to a new fish.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Boomer, I often forget to say so, but your generous contibution is one of the primary reasons I spend so much time here. That and being glued to the puter from sunrise till 1:00

Thanks again for all.
Your fan,
Mike

 

[Boomer]

Thanks Mike

 

[Ed Hahn]

very happy you are here.

I owe you a thank you too Boomer. As Always thanks for education.

 

[Boomer]

Thanks Ed

How did you miss this error of mine

However, that 700 ppm/microatm can be converted to Seawater which ends up about ~ 0.35 ppm -0.45 ppm, at 25 C and 35 ppt or SSTP.[.b]


Should be 350 ppm CO2, not 700 ppm

 

[ibionika]

Compare the continuity issues between TD and TS and the continuity issues between TS and TW... The difference is huge.
There is no hope for TW. Like said before; TW might become a good game... The story might even be good, but TW definitely wont be a good C&C.

 

[Boomer]

I think you are lost here and on the wrong thread and forum