Phosphate problems

[Slickdonkey]

So on the topic of phosphate removers, what do people prefer? Rowaphos or Phosban? I figure I'll put a bag in my chemical filtration unit and swap it out with my carbon every 2-3 weeks.

 

[MikeS]

Breezed through the post, so if you already answered this, forgive me...

what brand of salt do you use? did you test just the RO/DI water, or did you test it once you had the salt mix in there?

Also, 7 inch sandbed....most aragonite comes pretty well saturated in phosphates....another possible source...

On phosphate removers...most prefer the ferrous (iron based) ones, but I have used the aluminium based ones in my tank for many years with no ill effects on my corals...the aluminium based ones are cheaper, and they don't require use in a reactor...however, I highly encourage you to do the research on both before you make up your mind which one to use...


MikeS

 

[Scooterman]

Like Mike said aragonite could be an issue, salt mix. I've used rowa-phos & love the results but agree on finding the source. Remember your testing inorganic phosphates, so look for organic as the problem which can be removed before they become a problem. Your water is super clear because of the ozone your running but don't let that fool you.

 

[Curtswearing]

FWIW, they thought my levels are high because it's a new tank and I cured my rock in the tank.

Did you cure your rock in the tank BB and then after it was cured add the sand bed? Or did you cure your rock right on top of the sandbed?

They suspect the levels will decrease eventually and I could try running a phosphate remover in the meantime.

As the bacterial population and microalgae levels increase, you'll find that your levels will decrease. They will bind up the orthophosphates that your test kit can read.

 

[Slickdonkey]

what brand of salt do you use? did you test just the RO/DI water, or did you test it once you had the salt mix in there?

I'm using IO Reef Crystals.

Also, 7 inch sandbed....most aragonite comes pretty well saturated in phosphates....another possible source...

The 7-inch sandbed is actually a silica-based sand and is only used in the 40-gallon fuge (about 200 lbs of sand). There is a 1-inch aragonite bed in the main display.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Slickdonkey]

Did you cure your rock in the tank BB and then after it was cured add the sand bed? Or did you cure your rock right on top of the sandbed?

I added the sand before curing the rock.

As the bacterial population and microalgae levels increase, you'll find that your levels will decrease. They will bind up the orthophosphates that your test kit can read.

Good to know. I started adding kalk for topoff two days ago. I've heard that can bind phosphate as well. I'll keep an eye on the levels daily until I'm able to put some Phosban in my chemical filter (probably about a week from now).

 

[barrierreefcf]

If the problem persists after some phosphate remover is used and the tank breaks in a little more, another option to get both the nitrates and phosphates down without much additional expense would be the Vodka method. Reef Aq Vol 3. Delbeek/Sprung pg 274-275. I would think the Chaeto would kick in and help soon as well. Lastly, you mentioned carbon. I'm sure its high quality but to double check you could put some in a cup of ro/di and test it for phosphates after a couple days. Good luck!

 

[Slickdonkey]

Good idea on the carbon, although I'm sure it's pretty good stuff. Are you talking about fresh carbon or stuff that's been running in my tank for a few days?

 

[barrierreefcf]

Good idea on the carbon, although I'm sure it's pretty good stuff. Are you talking about fresh carbon or stuff that's been running in my tank for a few days?

Fresh carbon.

 

[liveforphysics]

First, I assume the daily 5gal waterchanges are done for the bennifit of exercise, as they play no effect on your tank.
EG,
2% waterchange your 1040L system is 21L. Assumeing you feed 0.25g(likely much too low) of P daily, you are increaseing P at a rate of ~0.24ppmP. The 2% waterchange is reduceing your 1ppm level by ~0.02ppm. This means overall you are looking at a net gain of 0.22ppm accumulating each day. Think about having a $10,000 creditcard debt, and getting charged 15% interest each month, but only paying $20 a month on it. Its simply not going to get you anywhere.


So, why aren't your levels higher you ask? Because all life in your tank needs P, and its quickly snatched up into living biomass.

Where did the P come from you wonder? Well, DUH!!! do you think the massive amount of life and material that dies off on uncured liverock is not all heavily P baised? Its fine, and the best way to start a tank, but umm, yeah, each rock is just covered with grams of P just waiting to break down into an inorganic form that the test kit sees.

Similarly, skimmers can remove things with stick to a bubble. Inorganic P, and most compounds with P in them are hydrofilic, making them immune to skimmers. All dectable forms of P are 100% immune to skimmers, which is why I occasionally have people test there wet skimmate for me, to show them that its often undectably low on P, even while the reef is not.

P is in all types of food. If it starts out in a more complex form, or starts with some inorganic P content, it makes very little difference once the food is used.

In otherwords, fussing about things like P in the top-off, P in the salt mix etc really makes no difference, since each feeding is adding pleanty on its own.


So, what is the answer? Something that you can remove which holds P. Water holds P, and doing massive water changes frequently CAN work. I personally think it's the most poor option. Other options? Some chemicals will bind the P and hold it until you replace them (aka, phosphate remover mediums). Or, macroalgaes like chaetomorphia under proper lighting will rapidly grow, binding P into there biomass which can easily be removed, takeing the P out with it.


Unless you plan to quit feeding your tank, worry about having a functional export system for P rather than fretting about where its comming from.

PS. doing a single 30gal waterchange once a month will have a greater effect on lowering nutrient levels than changeing 5gals everyday of the month, and it requires 120gal less of salt mix.

But, I know you don't like to listen to me, so I'm not sure why I even take take the time to try to help. Mr StillwontpullhispoordyingRTBAfromitstorturechamberwhichithasnoreasontobein

 

[mattseattle]

Luke dude - we listen to your opinion and value it so don't think we don't. It's just the way you carry yourself sometimes that steps on our toes...so never think that your opinion is not valued or listened to. At least that is me speaking and hopefully others feel the same.

 

[Slickdonkey]

First, I assume the daily 5gal waterchanges are done for the bennifit of exercise, as they play no effect on your tank.

No exercise required, it's all automatic. You're correct though. The water changes aren't being done specifically to reduce phosphates, it's just part of my routine maintenance. FWIW I'm planning to scale this down significantly now that my nitrates are lower. They were quite high after the rock had cured and the tank finished cycling. Calfo and others assert that more frequent water changes are more beneficial that a large monthly water change. Not talking about for purposes of phosphate reduction here, just generally.

Where did the P come from you wonder? Well, DUH!!! do you think the massive amount of life and material that dies off on uncured liverock is not all heavily P baised? Its fine, and the best way to start a tank, but umm, yeah, each rock is just covered with grams of P just waiting to break down into an inorganic form that the test kit sees.

Good, you've basically come to the same conclusion as myself and others in that the P source was due to the rock.

Similarly, skimmers can remove things with stick to a bubble. Inorganic P, and most compounds with P in them are hydrofilic, making them immune to skimmers. All dectable forms of P are 100% immune to skimmers, which is why I occasionally have people test there wet skimmate for me, to show them that its often undectably low on P, even while the reef is not.

Ok, not arguing with that.

Other options? Some chemicals will bind the P and hold it until you replace them (aka, phosphate remover mediums). Or, macroalgaes like chaetomorphia under proper lighting will rapidly grow, binding P into there biomass which can easily be removed, takeing the P out with it.

I threw some chaeto and lighting in the fuge about three weeks ago. Hopefully it will help.

But, I know you don't like to listen to me, so I'm not sure why I even take take the time to try to help. Mr StillwontpullhispoordyingRTBAfromitstorturechamberwhichithasnoreasontobein

It wasn't the advice, it was the attitude. BTW the RTBA is looking better

 

[liveforphysics]

Exellent news all around!

May I ask what sort of lighting is used on the chaeto, as well as the doubling rate. With dectable nutrients, the chaeto should be doubleing at least 3 times per week. If not, I may be able to assist you in finding the problem causeing slow growth.

Remember, chaeto can ONLY help while it is rapidly growing.

 

[Slickdonkey]

I'm using one of these bulbs (19W flavor) with a cheap Home Depot reflector.

The chaeto is by no means doubling three times per week. In fact it looks about the same as when I threw it in there. I've got two roughly fist-sized clumps in there that are nice n' green but not much growth I would say.

 

[Slickdonkey]

Ok, last night I threw some Phosban in my chemical filter and this morning the levels are close to zero. I'll do a low-range test tonight.

Thanks for the advice everyone. This isn't a long term solution but will hopefully sustain me until the levels fall on their own.