Phosphates in Frozen Food

[Lbrewer34]

So I just picked up my first soft corals (thanks a ton olsenhouse they are awesome) and thought i would test the frozen food for phosphates. I usually have low levels in the tank, and some minor diatom that is stubbornly staying around. The frozen mysis shrimp tested off the charts for phosphates. All i did to test was defrost the mysis in some tank water in a cup. I washed the remaining mysis by changing out the water in the cup a few times which lowered the phosphates significantly. Is there a better fish food out there that isn't so high in phosphates? Is the high phosphate in the fish food anything to worry about? Are there better feeding options out there? Thanks for the advice. I will try and get some pics up in a few days of the additions.
Tank parameters if it helps:
dkh-13, calcium 480, ph 8.2ish, nitrates 0, phosphates .25
Thanks a ton,

Lee

 

[Krish]

Take a peek at mojo's article on the dreaded "P" word on the home page if you haven't already. You will find some useful info on phosphates in there.

 

[Lbrewer34]

Thanks krish, I read mojo's article, it was one of the main reasons i tested the food. Is there a better brand of frozen food to use?
Thanks,

Lee

 

[NC2WA]

Haven't tested for PO4 but I use Rods Food which is rinsed in RO water (so I would assume PO4 would be low).

 

[Lbrewer34]

Haven't tested for PO4 but I use Rods Food which is rinsed in RO water (so I would assume PO4 would be low).

Ill look them up online. It was kind of funny actually, i thought that the frozen food might test a little positive for PO4. The test has you wait for 3 minutes before reading the results, but as soon as i shook up the test tube it read off the charts. I rinsed the food with my tank water, but I would hate to have to do this every time just to keep from adding so much phosphate. I figured that someone has to have come out with a low/no PO4 food.

 

[mojoreef]

Lee any frozen food is going to be high in Phosphates its just a natural part of what they have to do to keep it preserved, so ne real excaping it. Products like phytoplankton or marine snow are basically phosphate in a bottle, so real bad their also. Most flake food also has an ammount to, even the carbon most folks use contains it to.

When it comes down to feeding your system/fish/corals you really need focus on what it is your trying to accomplish and then matching that up to what you are trying to feed and how they eat. I will try to do a little write up on feeding/phosphates and so on to try and clear some stuff up.

Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Oh I wanted to add to that. When you are going to rince your frozen foods and similar always used ro/di water, the reasoning is that, that water is basically stripped of most elements, so when the phosphate from the food hits it it will bind up to the free ions, and thus go away when you seperate it from the food.

I got to ask what is it that you are trying to feed with these products??

Mojo

 

[Scooterman]

Ok, I guess you haven't see Lee's (our Lee) forum an information on feeding fish, which includes what your discussing here.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/fed-properly-proper-nutrition-57474/

 

[Lbrewer34]

Oh I wanted to add to that. When you are going to rince your frozen foods and similar always used ro/di water, the reasoning is that, that water is basically stripped of most elements, so when the phosphate from the food hits it it will bind up to the free ions, and thus go away when you seperate it from the food.

I got to ask what is it that you are trying to feed with these products??

Mojo

I don't have an ro/di unit yet, it's in the list to get but a few steps down. What i can do is get a gallon of ro/di from my lfs just for rinsing the food. I don't have many fish, a starry blenny, six line wraisse, watchman goby and a two spotted goby. I only feed the fish once a day and go through a typical cube of frozen food in 3-4 days. I have 4 soft corals, but i dont know the names of most of them. I do know that I have a candy cane and an orange crush. I only plan to feed the coral twice a week and try to target feed with a baster.
thanks!

 

[mojoreef]

Yea either from the lfs or even a grocery story should have some distilled water wich will help in this application for sure.

As per frozen foods as mentioned above its a bit of a bear when it comes to P. They have to use preservatives in order to keep them viable when they end up sitting on the shelf/frezzer for so long. You can always look to make your own food to get past this kind of stuff. A simple blend of shrimp/scallop/clams and perhaps some non oily fish mixed up in a blender and then frozen in a small ice cube tray will do the same effect, this way you could rince all the food prior to frezzing and then just use as required.

On the coral feeding this is another concept I have a hard time with. In the wild corals feed mainly on detritus/waste produced by fish, and if their is one thing we all have alot of in our systems is detritus and waste. For me concidering fish only uptake 10 to 15% of the food they ingest and then poop out the balance they make the perfect broadcast coral feeders you can get.

mike

 

[Lbrewer34]

Ok, I guess you haven't see Lee's (our Lee) forum an information on feeding fish, which includes what your discussing here.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/fed-properly-proper-nutrition-57474/

Wow, my head is spinning from reading that article, seems I have been feeding inefficiently. I am a bit more confused about how I should be feeding the tank. Do i need to buy vitamins and oils separately and add them as I feed or is there a food that covers most of the bases. I looked at the earlier recommendation of Rods foods and that seems to have more coverage than just feeding frozen mysis and flake like I am feeding now.

 

[Scooterman]

It is a lot of work as far as learning what is what but once you get that part down, it isn't so bad. When I had those questions I posted in Lee's forums and I posted the foods I thought I would like to use and provided the breakdown of what was in them and he made comments on them and helped point me in the right direction. If you find the right foods I think you can get most of what you need for a particular fish.

 

[rayjay]

Phosphates are not only sourced from the preservatives added (when added that is), but are a part of pretty well any food you would put in your tank, even flake or freeze dried or pellets.
Other than rinsing the frozen foods in tap water, I've not done anything else to try to prevent phosphate introduction specifically in my 18yrs of reefing, and, I don't even test for phosphates. (or anything else for that matter, unless starting up a new system)

 

[mojoreef]

Wow, my head is spinning from reading that article, seems I have been feeding inefficiently. I am a bit more confused about how I should be feeding the tank. Do i need to buy vitamins and oils separately and add them as I feed or is there a food that covers most of the bases. I looked at the earlier recommendation of Rods foods and that seems to have more coverage than just feeding frozen mysis and flake like I am feeding now.

As Ray mentioned most foods do have phosphates in them, and differing foods have different levels. Frozen foods and most flake food has the most and the only effective way to effectively deal with those is to try and bind the soluable P to ro/di or some kind of distilled water prior to feeding, then strain the water away and feed.

For me I just mix up my own as I mentioned prior. At the point of making it you can use distilled water to strain it prior to frezzing you could also add your vitamins or whatever you wished at that point. As per the corals I dont feed them I just allow them to take in the waste of the fish as they would in the wild.

Other than rinsing the frozen foods in tap water, I've not done anything else to try to prevent phosphate introduction specifically in my 18yrs of reefing, and, I don't even test for phosphates. (or anything else for that matter, unless starting up a new system)

Ray perhaps for a reefer that has been working with tanks as long as us that can be good advise ut I would not recommned that to anyone its just to dangerious, specially with all the additives folks use these days. When you have been doing it for a long time you can notice and diagnose problems from visual signs, not something a person is going to be able to do with having stared at tanks for a long time

 

[NC2WA]

for mysis shrimp, i soak mine in vitamins and selco to make it a little more nutritious, I do nothing for rods food as it is my main meal as it already contains garlic and selco, vegetables, vitamins, and whole fish/shrimp.

Several years ago, Lee was a guest speaker at a PSAS event, this is what I remembered and use to this day when looking for a food:

• Has to contained stabilized Vit C..operative word here is stabilized..if not stabilized then vit c will immeditately break down when it hits the water

• I avoid any food with a high concentration of <blank> meal, where <blank> is fish, shrimp, etc. If the package lists meal as the first ingredient, I stay away as changes are there is a high concentration of this stuff in it.

• I avoid a food with a high concentration of water. For example, if a package says 86% water and 2% protein, not really a good for the fish (or your wallet).

• Vit. D is not made in the ocean, but is found in the liver of fish, so when making your own food, include the entire fish.

I am not marketing Rods Food, but my fish love this stuff. It works for me, and the key is to find something that works for you and then stick with it. Yes, I would agree it is sorta $$$$ but for me it is worth the money, as I do not have time to make my own food.

 

[rayjay]

mojoreef, I never tested for phosphates even when I first started. On top of all that would you be upset to know that the only water I use is aged tap water for all my salt water needs? It probably has phosphates in it as well.
When I started, NO ONE here used anything other than tap water either aged or treated for chlorine/chloramine.
The ONLY time I ever tested for phosphates was when there was a discussion on phosphates re foods and I purchased a test kit to test phosphates in the common flake/pellet/freeze dried foods being fed to the tanks and ALL had significant levels of phosphates.
Using RO/DI for rinsing only removes external added phosphates and does nothing for the phosphates that are inherent in the food itself IMO.
Rinse some frozen food with tap water and measure the phosphates remaining. (from incompletely removed preservatives)
Rinse again with RO/DI and I'll bet you don't find much difference in the phosphate levels remaining after this than you do with after the tap rinse. I have yet to do this as I don't have RO/DI, but anything the RO/DI takes out beyond tap water I would think to be insignificant when compared to the amounts in the food itself.

 

[mojoreef]

mojoreef, I never tested for phosphates even when I first started. On top of all that would you be upset to know that the only water I use is aged tap water for all my salt water needs? It probably has phosphates in it as well.

It wouldnt Ray I do the same thing and to be completely honest I havent done a water change since I first started my tank??

Using RO/DI for rinsing only removes external added phosphates and does nothing for the phosphates that are inherent in the food itself IMO.

Doing any rinsing is only going to allow you to bind up dissolved P, using stripped water is going to allow for more P to be able to bind or pair up, the difference from one to the other I do not know. As per the P with in the food, of course that will not be bound up by rinsing as it is already bound up by the matrix of what ever the food is.

As I have mentioned in previous threads P is something our tanks and everything with in them need to survive, so one never looks to completely eliminate them. But in saying that in the modren era of feed you fish xy and z and then feed your corals xy and z and then use this additive and that one and so on and so on, excessive P can be a very big issue for reefers at this age. Back in our day their was none of this, and the pressure of what was the next great thing didnt exist?

Ray its great to see you posting here again, I hope you have the time to stick around some more

Mojo

 

[Lbrewer34]

for mysis shrimp, i soak mine in vitamins and selco to make it a little more nutritious, I do nothing for rods food as it is my main meal as it already contains garlic and selco, vegetables, vitamins, and whole fish/shrimp.

I will give rods a shot, but I now know what to look for and what to avoid. Maybe as I progress in the hobby I will try growing/making my own food, but for now I will have to rely on pre-made.
Thanks for all the advice on the subject,
Lee

 

[rayjay]

Mojo, For the most part, most of my posts are regarding artemia and seahorses anymore. The reefing hobby has passed me by as I still do everything the same way as when I started, like bare bottom tanks and all tanks lit with normal output fluorescent lighting. It's hard to advise people when you don't know all the new stuff, but I can't see me getting into it at my age, when all the old ways work well for me and don't cost anywhere near what today's systems are costing people.

 

[Scooterman]

Mojo, For the most part, most of my posts are regarding artemia and seahorses anymore. The reefing hobby has passed me by as I still do everything the same way as when I started, like bare bottom tanks and all tanks lit with normal output fluorescent lighting. It's hard to advise people when you don't know all the new stuff, but I can't see me getting into it at my age, when all the old ways work well for me and don't cost anywhere near what today's systems are costing people.

Ray, I can't disagree with the way you do things but without really knowing the details of exactly what you do and have might have an impact on how things are done or not necessary. It would be nice to see more information on how you do do things and maybe pics of what you have ect. Maybe not on this thread but maybe a writeup of you own. I think the basic thing here is when you deal with people not quite experienced as you are that maybe they just walk into a store and not knowing just rely on what they are told they need. Maybe what they need or want to keep requires more than what your doing? The point is if your going to throw something out at least explain your situation some so we don't have everyone throwing out all sorts of ideas etc and basically confusing everyone, I guess you somewhat go out of the ordinary here and may be why we question you more, not to be offensive toward you. We try to teach a little more detail of what is going on to offer a better chance of learning and being successful, also things changed and we have access to keep more and more and do more and more than ever, some systems are more elaborate and costly for sure. I do think lots of stuff can be done without and simpler systems and successfully and I don't think it is fair to shove just on thought of how to do things but I do like to understand how someone can get away like that compared to why so many more people push other ways.

As far as phosphates go I never personally tested myself either but I do know that everything I put in the tank contains them and I have to deal with them, one way or another. The difference between me and others here is I probably have a better understanding of them and how to deal with them and related issues, it could be as simple as a siphon and a water change but how you relate that to others is important to be clear on why I can do this and it works for me. Also I may have a very simplistic system compared to others and I may not need as much etc either but this all comes to play as how I post to others and try to help by being clear to why.