Pinched Mantle

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the mad reefer - thanks for letting me know where I can get the Metronidazole. I'm going to order myself some tonight.

Barry - did the lab indicate how long the clams need to be exposed to the metronidazole? Also, what are the grams per gallon? You are dosing 5 grams in 60 gallons, so is the "testing dose" 1 gram/12 gallons?
 
Acording to the "statements" the lab made a FWD would kill the protazoan in three minuits, but everyone including me diped our clams over and over for longer than than the three minuits listed and still the problem came back. that leads me to believe that the tank water is infested and the whole reef set up will need to be treated with the medication. Thats just me guessing and I hope I am wrong, but I think treating the clams in a hosipital tank will kill the bug, but once the clams are placed back into the display they will just catch the bug agen from the reef. :mad:
 
that is unless the tank needs to be clamless for x amount of time. Maybe this bug will die without a host.
 
Roy - you bring up a good point, which is why I asked how long the protozoan can live without a host. One thing I keep going back to, is when the clams are in the freshwater dip, they (the clams) tend to close up. I don't think in the freshwater dip, all the protozoans are getting exposed to the water because of the way the mantle folds when the clam closes - even slightly. In Illusion's case, a hyposalinity situation did kill off the protozoans...after a week exposure. I tried the Lugol's dip in saltwater because I thought if the clams would open up (seeing as they are in saltwater), then maybe the iodine would work. After the iodine dip, I placed my clams in a QT, not in the main tank, so the water and everything was new...nothing from my display. The pinched mantle remained even in the QT, and I did an iodine dip for 10 minutes (that's tough). Again, the clams weren't completely opened up while in the dip, and the PM returned in a much smaller area, but is still there. I use UV on my tank - not that it would kill the protozoans if they don't pass through the unit, but it might make a difference in my situation. Just some thoughts....
 
Just a fast post before getting out of here. :) The water did kill the protazoan but if it came back then it it didn't get it all.

There was no protazoan it our water but we have about 1200 gallons and do water changes all most everyday as when we ship clams we are using the water from the tanks then have to add to the system. It is never a good idea to add anyones water to your system.

leads me to believe that the tank water is infested and the whole reef set up will need to be treated with the medication.
Click to expand...

We don't know that but you can take your water to some marine lab and have it checked. Like I have stated in previous post, we all take a certain amount of rish when we place anything in our systems, being fish, corals, etc etc. The enclosed systems that we all have is not the ocean and we will never mimic it.

Will try to answer some of the other questions this week-end, when I have a few minutes.
 
I guess we all shall wait and see, I may have to invest in some VHOs to place over my hosiptal tank...Ill hunt around for a work horse 7 ballast I guess that would be the least expensive alternative...
 
Well - I just ordered some Metronidazole. I finally have a slight positive outlook for these clams. I'm still surprised at how much I put them through and they are still here. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will work. Guess I'm going to be rigging up a MH light to the small tank for QT. I think I'll keep them in there for a month? Anyone have thoughts on this? (of course that is if the lab did not give a length of time these live without a host). I could always do the treatment, put them back in the tank and see if it returns.
 
my sister is a nurse and happend to have some flagyl samples. I also was thinking about keeping them in qt for about a month. and leave the main tank clam free in hope these protozoans will die off. my question is: when i put them in the qt, do i leave them in the medication for the whole duration or do i medicate for a period of time in hospital tank and then put in the qt. Also does anybody have an opinion on useing the flagyl tabs crushed up or should i buy the stuff nikki bought?
 
Hmmm.....tough call. Do you know what the flagyl will do to the clams? If not, then I would order the Metronidazole.

Nick
 
metronidazole is the generic brand for flagyl. Just not sure about the inert buffers. I would not think it is harmfull.
 
If its the generic brand, then you should be fine...

Nick
 
WOW I can't believe Nikki's clams went through all that and still alive, I hope to see these questions answered & a system for the cure is developed. I think it is about time to build me a solid QT, something that can keep everything good for at least a month or six weeks, I wonder how long it will take.

 
do i leave them in the medication for the whole duration or do i medicate for a period of time in hospital tank and then put in the qt
Click to expand...

I think the answer to this depends on the length of time the lab found to be effective against the protozoans. I think it is important to remind ourselves this is all experimental at this point. Similar to when people started using Interceptor in their tanks against Red Bugs. You may want to wait and see how this works. I don't (maybe someone already does) know what will happen to the clams while being exposed to metronidazole - for an extended period. I was going to treat the whole quarantine tank, and any subsequent water changes (daily for about a week) will have an appropriate dose of metronidazole (kind of like a course of antibiotics). Since I don't know what the protozoan's life cycle is, I am guessing there may be some developing somewhere on the clams that may not get killed with the initial dose, so that's why I was thinking of doing subsequent treatments. Also, I'm unsure of how long the metronidazole takes to break down. This is all guessing on my part. In humans metronidazole sometimes causes a side effect where hemoglobin is broken down and the surface of the tongue appears black from deposits of the break down. I don't know if a clam would have any unusual side effects. We will have to wait and see. I'm going to give my QT a good cleaning this weekend, so it will be nice and fresh for the treatment.

If anyone has thoughts on duration of treatment until we hear what the lab told Barry - I'd love to hear them.
 
I was on flagyl (metronidazole) last august for a infection from leg surgery. I was prescribed 1000mg every 8hrs for 10 days (iv) and then moved to ancef for another 10 days (pills). not sure how this coralates to the clams. I guess i will treat one clam and see what happens. I hate to possibly sacrafice one but it is for the benefit of the others. I assume if untreated then they may perish anyway. I will keep you guys informed to what happens with me. Best of luck everybody!
 
Personally I am a little confused as to why the lab indicates such a high dosage all at once. Granted Metronidazole is not a very water soluable medication and works best when ingested but 10x the usual starting dose seems odd. I wonder if they are basing this on the number of animals treated or "environmental" conditions being treated in. Typically when not ingested, Metronidazole can be administered at 250 mg/10gal building the dosage daily (to the 1g/10 gal if needed) for about 3-5 days with success. Just thinking out loud so to speak... :idea:

Although larger clams do not feed as much as when they are small, I also don't think it would hurt to soak some of the med in with phyto or other similarly sized micron foods in which the clam may injest prior to adding to the QT tank. This can often improve the odds of a successful treatment.

In regards to the term of the treatment, I see no reason why the length of time should vary much from normal protozoa in which this type of med is effective. Typically anywhere from 3-5 days. The life cycle would really depend on identifying the actual species involved. The fallow time for the main tank is going to be "best guess" otherwise. It may also help to know if the parasite is monoxenous (needing only one host) or heteroxenous (needing multiple hosts) in terms of fallow time. Given the life cycle of some protists is as little as a day, some can be much longer and more complex. I would err on the side of caution and extend the fallow period to as long as 4 weeks otherwise. Apicomplexan parasitites are for the most part obligate from what I have been able to find. Some like the Gregarine parasites in west coast clams are facultative.

Could it possibley be (or similar to) Perkinsus marinus ?

Cheers
Steve
 
Steve I would say they are definately in that family and I really dought they are species specific. Treatment should be done in a qt tank and should last 4-5 days. On the dosage amount I dought they used the aquarium dosage and went from thier, probibly this would be the dosage they found to nail them immediately.


Mike
 
http://oceanencounter.com/Merchant2..._Code=OE&Product_Code=E2R&Category_Code=EVMHR

Im thinking that will be the new light system ill put over my hospital tank...best deal I can find so far money wise...cheaper than an icecap 660 anyway lol....I dicided to stick with 250s allaround for consistancy...did not want to have the clams stress over different light systmes by being moved back and forth. plus it could be used as an emergency back up if my main lights fail on the displays...

this has been a great thread...has anyone found out yet what particular brand of of the medication to use...Im affrade to go out and order some off the net....I dont know if different brands vary in concentration yet....Ill wait for Barry to give the specifics of what he has dosed and what not.........Thanks agen Barry for going the extra mile, I will continue to do business with you for now on! LOL when I have extra money for clams that is lol...
 
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