Please help.. RDO in tank won't stop...

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Liquidnice

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
7
Location
Oak Harbor, WA
180gal - I have recently suffered a great loss. My 2 green bird's nest and some ORA chips a couple of green acros with red polyps (complete RDO, they are now sitting on my fireplace mantle), and all the purple and orange digitata have RDO from underneath. My slimer and pink bird's nest was also dying from the bottom up. My purple validia, green cap, and orange monti are also suffering, but from the top down. I thought that it was from the temp as well ( mine had spiked up to 84 one day). This all started about June 25th or so. As I was adding more fans to the sump on July 2nd, I saw a shiny blue, red, and yellow thing at the bottom of the tank. It turned out to be a dart –slightly rusted. It had fallen from the dart board sitting right above the sump (not a smart move).

The tank now has 6 fans on top, one on the refugium, and 3 on the sump I have been maintaining 77-79 now. I have done 4 10% water changes and changed the carbon set up as well as placed 6 chemi pure into two filter socks into the main flow. I dumped the phos guard and put carbon in that as well. We also have a calcium reactor and the MSX 200 protein skimmer.

A friend let me know that one of my mega flows were blocked and unblocked the tube allowing the water to flow. My husband has been on det for 7 weeks, I know he's not going to be too happy. But, our friend was explaining that the coral have not been able to breathe for who knows how long. We have been using an old pump (Iwaki 40RLT ), because a day or two before my husband left ours died (of course). Luckily our friend gave us this old one. So, if this is the current prob. What amount of water flow would you recommend for a 180gal, 100 gal sump, 60 gal refugium.

We have 5 Koralia 4s blowing around the tank, and we have been doing this for two years and never had a problem with our corals. This tank is only 6 mo old though. Before he left, it was set up as a wave maker with the aqua control jr thing, but one of the power heads was giving me trouble, so we just turned them all on at the same time. It seems as thought the die off has slowed down but not stopped. Oh also, a weeks or so ago, I woke up to a very dirty bottom floor. My sand has always been pure white. I know this is from all of the nitrates. A friend gave me two sand sifting stars and I got a diamond watchman goby yesterday. Hopefully he will do some work.

Not sure what else to do. Oh, our tank is full of sps, some lps and some zoas. Our cup coral and my yellow leather have also shown signs of stress (holes in the center). I'm at a loss. I also thought that it might be the lighting. Maybe we need new lights. 3 X 250 10K metal halides. 2 are about a 1yr and 6 mo old. Would replacing them stress the corals even more? I'm not sure if it's water flow, temp, metal poisoning, lights. SG 1.022 – 1.023, phosphates 0, nitrites 0, ph 8.2, ma 1130, ca 420, KH 5 (I know that is low – would this be the prob?), ammonia 0, my nitrates are the only thing high 40. Here are some pics. Should I frag the corals that are still dying? Please help…any information would be greatly appreciated. Here are some pics.

Oh, also, on a dead piece of coral I was able to get a close up of these white egg sack kinda things. They are covering my entire tank – snail shells, rock, and dead corals. Any idea what these things are? They do break open.
 
High nitrate is a huge problem. A couple of 20% WC's back to back should help to clear up most of your problems to start. Then you need to find the source that is feeding your nitrates. IM sure others can give far more help than me, but I do know that big water changes are your friend right now.
 
I appreciate you taking the time to read all that. Thank you for the input. I'll go ahead and do some more water changes. Our nitrates have always been 0 prior to this. I'm sure the rise in nitrates right now is from all of the die off. I went a head and fragged the slimer. The die off was moving up too fast, and I also cut the dead algae tips off of all the other corals that were suffering and pulled out as much dead coral as possible;maybe this will help. I really couldn't do much for the digis or the pink bird's nest.

The reason I stopped doing water changes after the last ten 10 was due to the fear of taking out too much of the natural bacteria. I haven't done a water change in about 6 days now. I went ahead and read up on the KH recipe to increase it using baking soda, so I was going to try that with another 10% water change tomorrow. I retested it again and the alk was up to 6. I'm going to try to increase it to at least 8.
 
Those eggs look like Nerite snail eggs to me.

Hope this helps!
 
Hello,
Sorry to hear about your losses :(
The heat is likely what started the chain reaction. I start to take action at 82.9F. If all other conditions are optimal most SPS corals can take up to 84F before they begin to RTN and some species can survive up to 88F :eek: Usually heat is not the only factor but just the most obvious one to see and measure. The more parameters that are near the limit the worse the reaction the corals have to any one parameter that exceeds their tolerance level.

Here is my recommended course of action:
Remove the sand sifting stars ASAP. They will kill your sand bed and then starve and decompose causing more pollution. Most of the sand sifting stars sold in the hobby are carnivores eating the micro fauna to extinction in your sand bed.

Reduce nitrates through water changes 20% once a week. Very little bacteria lives in the water column. The beneficial bacteria lives on surfaces of the rock, glass, and substrate.

Bring the dKH to about 8.5 over the next week or so.

Water flow for your tank should total 4,000-5,000gph for SPS corals. The Koralia #4 pumps are rated at 1200gph each when new and clean so you should have enough flow. Be sure they are all clean and working properly. In the pictures they appear to have excessive coralline algae growth on them that could be an indicator they need to be cleaned. To clean them soak for 4 hours in full strength white household vinegar then a quick rinse under the tap and they are ready to use. Clean them one by one as to not reduce the flow in the tank too much all at once.

Metal halide bulbs should be changed every year (this is not the cause of your problems however). I would change them in 3-4 weeks and reduce the photo period to 4 hours for a week, then increase it 2 hours a week until you get to 8-9 hours).

Your SPG should be 1.025 for SPS corals. Be sure to not let it swing up or down from evaporation with all the added fans.

The dart is not likely to be a cause for concern.

I agree with Nikki about the eggs. Looks to be a snail type.

HTH,
Kevin
 
Thank you very much for all of the helpful information. I'm very glad to know that it is not some sort of toxin in the tank. I will get the stars out, and send them back to my friends house ASAP (one of my tangs already thought I was feeding them a new type of food and took an arm off :(). My husband had told me not to put them in; I guess I'll hear an "I told ya so," when he gets home. I was so desperate because my white sand had become green and brown, and I thought that if I got it clean the nitrates would decrease. The goby, so far, has just been settling into his new house under a rock. Any suggestions about getting the bed clean otherwise or should I just let the creatures try to do it?
About the eggs, thank you, not knowing was really stressful. I thought there might be a harmful character in the tank.

I will start with a water change and the baking soda mix (slowly). I will also get in there and clean those pumps. I will also increase the SG.

Now as far as the temp goes. The water still fluctuates between 77-and 79.3 or so, is that OK? We were thinking that we might need to get a chiller, I do have pretty good control over it now with the fans though.

This morning the slimer looks great now that its fragged, but my purple digi looks pretty bad. I don't know what to do about this guy.

Thank you again for all of the great information. It is greatly appreciated.
 
Hello,
The brown and green on your sand are removing nitrates not creating them. If you clean the sand without addressing the cause, the algae will reappear in a few days.
I was so desperate because my white sand had become green and brown
As you say it is just a cosmetic issue. A couple of Fighting Conchs would be a good choice unless you have a trigger or other fish that eats snails.

Your temperature range is fine. Several of my tanks swing 3F per 24 hours during the summer without a problem.

I would frag the best looking piece of M. digitata and place it in an area of moderate flow and low to moderate light and hope for the best. It is a very hardy coral and even the tiniest piece can regrow into a large colony in a year or so.

Regards,
Kevin
 
Hi Kevin,

I had no idea that the dirty look was actually helping. We have several large fighting conchs who are doing their best, maybe I should get a few more.

I went onto the chem. page and baked the baking soda, measured out exactly what it needed for a gallon, and treated the tank for heavy SPS, 2mlper gal about 26TBS, it turned out to be. After 6 or 7 hrs or so, it seems to have sped up the die off on the purple digi and pink birds nest. I re-tested the alk last night and it was still about 6 maybe between 6 and 7. I will treat the tank again today. Do I need to take out all of the bags of chemi pure when I do this? I meant to ask you that. I also wasn't sure if I could just put the baking soda mixture in with my new saltwater mixture.

The thing about the digi is that the entire colony has death on every branch. I don't know where to begin to frag. I'll wait to do this next water change until I hear back.

Thank you for taking the time to help.
 
Hi,
My lights just came on, and it looks like my orange and green montis are suffering from yesterdays baking soda. I'm scared to add more. I'm going to do a water change and see if this helps.
 
Check your pH while dosing the sodium bicarbonate, (baked baking soda). It is a VERY powerful pH adjuster, and a little bit in a tank can radically raise your pH in a short period, which will cause more stress for your corals.

I would follow Kevin's suggestions, and suggest you adjust your make up water to the levels, (pH, Alk, Ca, Mag) to the levels you want the tank to be.

Hope that makes sense....

Nick
 
Sorry to hear about your loss of corals. Its really hard to stop RTN when its happening. Where is your salt level? and have you calibrated the spectrometor? another question, are you letting your new water mix over night? What kind of salt are you using?

Best of luck to ya.
 
Thank you

I tested the ph and it has stayed at 8.2 I went ahead and added another dose of the baking soda this morning. I have fragged all of my large colonies that are suffering, it breaks my heart, but it seems to be the best solution. I will continue to watch all of the levels and do the water changes and pray.

Funny that you mention the salt. At first, for the first three water changes I was using a bucket of oceanic (I have never used it before). A new friend brought it over when he came to meet our tank. I too thought that the salt might have something in it that my corals aren't too keen on, so I am now using the one I have always used before, the Instant Ocean.

Also, I use a power head to mix the salt in a giant plastic trash can and I normally start it it the morning and let it mix most of the day, or start it at night and wake up in the morning and let it mix at night. I think I am using a spectrometer when I am testing the salinity. It is the blue thing with glass, and you put a drop of water on the front of it, and the plastic goes over it, and you look through the tube to see where your water level measures. It's pretty cool, my brother has been in reef keeping for years and had to tell me how to use it. I had no idea what my husband was doing when he put this thing up to his eye, or how to use it until he left, and all of a sudden I had to learn all about the background of reef keeping in a hurry. It's a good thing to know though, because you never know when your going to be by yourself. I have it up to 1.024 now

I just love fell in love with the hobby when we got our very first piece of live rock, and I got so excited about finding a teeny tiny moving worm sticking part of its body out. I just had to find more. I feel like a bad mom right now, because I know that these animals depend on me to take care of them.

I thought I was doing a pretty good job (with my lovely hubby of course). People used to bring all of their hurt stuff over to our house so that we could nurse them back to health. Now, I'm just really disappointed, especially because it was left in my hands.

I'm not good with plants, but with the corals, I feel like I have an underwater garden. Just watching all of the animals grow and react to me is awesome. I have a lobo that was sick when I bought it. So I target fed (this was 6 mo ago) several times a day until it got brighter and better. Now, when ever I put my hand in the tank - it knows my smell, and he (I call it a him) opens his mouths and puffs up cuz he thinks I have food. When people come over, that don't know anything about aquariums, the first thing I show them is what he does - they think it is amazing. Most people have no idea that corals have mouths and that they are not plants. He's a good introduction for people to realize how cool reef keeping really is.
Sorry to ramble on like that...

Well, pray for me everyone. Hopefully the baking soda won't upset too many corals today.
 
Hello,
It has been commonly reported for SPS corals to RTN when doing large or often water changes with different salt brands. I recommend to stick with one brand of salt or if you are going to change do it very slowly.

Regards,
Kevin
 
Consistency is the best practice, and sometimes shooting in the dark is bad. Its good that you've been paying attention to all aspects in the tank. Soon you will be telling your husband what to do and not to do.... lol.... My wife's become quite observant of the tanks and can usually tell when theres a problem.

On the adding of baking soda..... hmmm i might just do another water change with the instant ocean and let it be for a while. The ups and downs in alk might not help rite now.

another thing is i had to get rid of some soft corals...Leathers because of there toxins. They dont get along with most sps.

Did you calibrate the spectrometor? put some RODI water on the glass and check it out!
 
You've gotten a lot of good advice. I love forums for that. I had a couple ideas to add, as well.

With the baking soda addition, try adding it in a drip, so it's dosed slowly. If you're adding an entire gallon, I'd add that over at least a couple hours, if not longer.

Kevin, my thought on the dart is that it COULD be chrome plated brass. Brass, of course, is made of copper. Heck, any alloy could have some copper in it, which would equal instant killer. I'd test the water for copper, just to be sure. Is it just the hard corals that are suffering, or all of them?

As stated above, having a paramer out of whack isn't necessarily the end of the world, but having many of them at a marginal point can really add up to bad news. Between the alkalinity running at DKh of 5 instead of 9, and magnesium running at 1130 instead of 1400, salinity running 1.022 instead of 1.026, and so on... this may not be the dart, but a system's water quality finally weakening to the point of crumbling.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but water changes are your friend. :D
 
Hi,
OK, well my hubby did finally get back. He didn't think it was that bad...I couldn't believe it. I'm sitting here looking at 9 dead frags on my mantle, 3 large colonies...I thought that was pretty bad. The one thing that he told me to check, that I forgot was if there was any voltage in the water. He tested it out and it seems as though every single item of ours was putting out some sort of voltage into the water totaling about 40 watts. We tested every single pump and power head, light, reactor, and skimmer, and we couldn't figure out why everything was putting out something ( between 16-28 each). It turns out that the only thing not putting any voltage into the tank was that old pump...go figure...anyways...we had to get a grounding probe and now there is no voltage. The dying seemed to slow for a week or so but just recently it has started up again. I tested my water (Oh all the pumps are clean and I have been adding the baking soda 26TBS every couple of days or so) but my salinity is still really low, so I'm slowly adding saltwater into the tank as a top off instead of the normal fresh. My alk won't seem to go past 8 and then it goes back down to 6 where its at again. I finally have my nitrates down to 20, but still there should be none. ph is 8.2 ammonia 0 phos 0 nitrite 0. However, different corals are starting to suffer now, my pocilliporas (sorry if I spelled them wrong) and my cats claw, and my slimer is starting again. I lost another ORA chips. My husband thinks its just because we have too many frags in the tank. He also says that we should get rid of all the soft corals. I did a water 10 % change two days ago.
Any other suggestions....??? Please keep praying for healing of our tank and its inhabitants...thank you.
Melissa
 
Hello,
You really need to find the source of your nitrates. With all the water changes they should have quickly dropped to zero. There must be too much food, skimmer too small (I could not find a tank size rating for your skimmer on the MFG site), or too many fish.

Your calcium reactor should be supplying calcium and alkalinity in the proper quantities. What test kit are you using to measure alkalinity and have you verified the results with another test kit?

Regards,
Kevin
 
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