politicaly correct

[ecobalance]

OK,well here we go. 1st off i understand that some might take offence to remarks such as''parinoid skitzo'',andcalling people sheep,so i apologize.I suppose i should pre-think some of my less than politicaly correct phrases,that are not taken as lightly as i would hope.With that said i assure any and everyone they are never personaly aimed.To me a parinoid skitzo is simply a person who is strictly by the book and would never attempt any thing without ample research and follow strict guidelines,and never venture anywhere that would leave anything to chance.I see alot of new aquarist who are being led into this catigory,due to a vast amount of well intending wannabe biologist,who can turn a simple question on low ph into a mind boggling display of to much information,resulting in a newby leaneing twice as confused and scared as before,due to only a over ambisious,yet well intended veteran of the hobie useing such question as an avenue to amaze with his brillance or baffle with his bs,as the case may be.I only believe that the new aquarist should be only given the basic step by step set up methods,and taught the importance of pre planning what will be needed to acomplish final product is to be.The importance of choosing well thought out live stock and the approaite equiptment that will be needed to do so,discourageing them from advanced set ups that are best left to more advanced aquarist.I believe walking a newby through their first set upstep by step and allowing them access to new ways that lessen the varibles in such set up,the first being the nitro/cycle,which would incorporate cured and if possible rock from a system up and running,mixed with freshly cured rock and live sand,free of any ammonia or nitrites,a bottle of nitrofiying bacteria,a hydrometer,and a simple ammonia alert,and express the importance of a approate skimmer and adiquate circulation,you will increase that persons chance for sucess by limiting the varibles associated with the old nitro/cycle way.Allow them to taste success with out the need or pressure of knowing the biological aspects of such aquarium.With success will come the natural desire to know why,how and when.They will be better off learning from that set up with out the temptation to add to ,as a result of a test taken from a newly set up un stable changing aquarium,that is what took me years to relize[better left alone].Testing parimeters will be learned with time.Such an aquarium will allow them to add the live stock in which they planned and not reley on ''hardy'' fish that will only become a unwanted nuesance in time such as damsel's.Teach the importance of religously caried out waterchange habbits and maintance techniques.More new aquarist fail as a result of additions made to their aquarium with products they dont understand,as a result of advice from a well intended hobiest,after relaying a test of a new [still maturing]aquarium,resulting in added varieables that have now spun out of their control.

 

[ajnweb]

Nicely said!

 

[Reeferdude]

I agree. In addition, I believe the new reefer, in their quest for the "perfect tank" is a reflection of today's instant gratification society. Whether it be in the form of the final product "tank" itself or the information readily available on the INTERNET to achieve that end goal. In any event it's a good sign that new reefers are trying to understand and be successful in the hobby. Several good books would be good starting point for anyone just starting out...

 

[Herefishyfishy]

True and well said. Throwing out a lot of undefined technical words in response to a simple question isn't helpful and can often be a hindrance to learning. Though there is no replacement for experience, knowledge through reading is a pretty good start. Personally, I am impressed with how many new hobbyists wish to learn from other more experienced aquariest's mistakes. No reason having to duplicate the same mistakes if avoidable. leading to the same losses. I am concerned over the supply side of the equation. Perhaps the reefs are not infinite in inventory. Maybe taking care of all the marine life would be advantageous over wasting them as a learning experience.

IMHO, most chemical products are more for manufaturer profits than for hobbyist's success. Hard to improve on natural salt water kept fresh and clean.

On a side note, the advanced topics have their own forums to be viewed or not at ones own preferences.

 

[Planet Reef]

I see alot of new aquarist who are being led into this catigory,due to a vast amount of well intending wannabe biologist,who can turn a simple question on low ph into a mind boggling display of to much information,resulting in a newby leaneing twice as confused and scared as before,due to only a over ambisious,yet well intended veteran of the hobie useing such question as an avenue to amaze with his brillance or baffle with his bs,as the case may be.

Wow!!! First you apologize for calling people sheep and paranoid schizo's, then you proceed to insult other posters who provide more than the most basic info by calling them wannabe biologists. But that wasn't enough, you had to even question their motives by saying the reason they did it was to amaze people with their brilliance. But that wasn't enough either, you are also saying they are possibly trying to baffle people with BS.

I'm curious how you would answer the low pH question. There are numerous reasons pH could be low and you can't just give a pat answer. Here's several possibilities;

• The lights might have just turned on 5 minutes before they tested their water for pH.
• Their alkalinity could be too low.
• Their CO2 could be too high and/or their dissolved Oxygen could be low.
• They could have a Calcium reactor where the effluent is entering the tank too quickly
• Their bioload could be too high for their filtration methods or tank size
• yada, yada, yada

I only believe that the new aquarist should be only given the basic step by step set up methods,and taught the importance of pre planning what will be needed to acomplish final product is to be.The importance of choosing well thought out live stock and the approaite equiptment that will be needed to do so,discourageing them from advanced set ups that are best left to more advanced aquarist.I believe walking a newby through their first set upstep by step and allowing them access to new ways that lessen the varibles in such set up,the first being the nitro/cycle,which would incorporate cured and if possible rock from a system up and running,mixed with freshly cured rock and live sand,free of any ammonia or nitrites,a bottle of nitrofiying bacteria,a hydrometer,and a simple ammonia alert,and express the importance of a approate skimmer and adiquate circulation,you will increase that persons chance for sucess by limiting the varibles associated with the old nitro/cycle way.Allow them to taste success with out the need or pressure of knowing the biological aspects of such aquarium.With success will come the natural desire to know why,how and when.They will be better off learning from that set up with out the temptation to add to ,as a result of a test taken from a newly set up un stable changing aquarium,that is what took me years to relize[better left alone].Testing parimeters will be learned with time.Such an aquarium will allow them to add the live stock in which they planned and not reley on ''hardy'' fish that will only become a unwanted nuesance in time such as damsel's.Teach the importance of religously caried out waterchange habbits and maintance techniques.More new aquarist fail as a result of additions made to their aquarium with products they dont understand,as a result of advice from a well intended hobiest,after relaying a test of a new [still maturing]aquarium,resulting in added varieables that have now spun out of their control.

If their pH is low, there is only one way of determining that....via testing. If their pH is low because their alkalinity is too low, there is only one way of testing that....via testing. If they need to increase their alkalinity and their Calcium is too high and they willy-nilly add buffer, they could end up with a carbonate snowstorm and it would be the fault of the person who just told them to willy-nilly add that buffer without testing. How do you find out what their Calcium level is? Via testing of course. If they can't get their Calcium and alkalinity balanced, how do you fix that? Obviously you test their Magnesium levels.

 

[DonW]

Its very apparent that your methods are profit based. Its much easier to get a person to max out their credit card and keep it that way with this line of thinking. Suck them in giving them only enough info to get started and keep them comming back selling them more and more as time move on. This is nothing new, its not novel, its typical and what has gone on for years. This is what gives LFS's a bad reputation. Contradictions like buying bacteria in a bottle and buying established LR. Only proove that you really dont have a true understanding or are just a typical LFS looking to make a sale.

This is not a easy hobby. This is a reef keeping forum and that in itself is a advanced topic. Its not up to the advanced users to determine the intelligence of folks that ask questions. Answers are given, if not understood then they need to ask more questions. We baby people along on a everyday basis and hide nothing because we have nothing to gain. We enjoy the hobby and want to keep it alive, nothing more.

Don

 

[jezzeaepi]

This is a hobby with a steep learning curve. Consequently, the people on this board post and answer things to the best of their knowledge in hopes of helping fellow reefers. Obviously there will be misunderstandings sometimes, but thats life. I think its short sited and foolish to say:
"a vast amount of well intending wannabe biologist,who can turn a simple question on low ph into a mind boggling display of to much information,resulting in a newby leaneing twice as confused and scared as before,due to only a over ambisious,yet well intended veteran of the hobie useing such question as an avenue to amaze with his brillance or baffle with his bs"

Most of the "vets" on this board know exactly what they are talking about. This is a complex living ecosystem and to truly answer the question of "low ph" it will take quite a bit of typing to explain things fully. The problem is that ultimatly, no one can tell the poster why their ph is low other then the poster. He/she will have to take all of that information, and think for themselves and figure out why they have a low ph by testing and experimenting with their own set up.

Peace

 

[Maxx]

If I'm understanding your thought process correctly, I agree with your basic premise. But there are some serious flaws in your agurment which need to be addressed.

I only believe that the new aquarist should be only given the basic step by step set up methods,and taught the importance of pre planning what will be needed to acomplish final product is to be.The importance of choosing well thought out live stock and the approaite equiptment that will be needed to do so,discourageing them from advanced set ups that are best left to more advanced aquarist.

Agreed. Completely 100%. But what if the new aquarist is really determined to keep something advanced, like say an anemone? What then?

I believe walking a newby through their first set upstep by step and allowing them access to new ways that lessen the varibles in such set up,the first being the nitro/cycle,which would incorporate cured and if possible rock from a system up and running,mixed with freshly cured rock and live sand,free of any ammonia or nitrites,a bottle of nitrofiying bacteria,a hydrometer,and a simple ammonia alert,and express the importance of a approate skimmer and adiquate circulation,you will increase that persons chance for sucess by limiting the varibles associated with the old nitro/cycle way.

There have been several tests over the years that concluded the bottles of nitrifying bacteria dont really benefit a new system. If you are using already cured liverock and live sand, you already have the bacteria you're gonna need. You just dont have a large population of it. Bacteria population levels will rise and fall depending on available conditions. If there is only enough available nutrients to support a small bacteria population, then you will only have a small bacteria population. By definition, cycled liverock has already gone through the die off and the bacterial blooms which take advantage of the decay of the dying organisms. Once those organisms are gone and the die off has stopped, the bacterial population will drop down to the level it can sustain itself at due to the available nutrients. Therefore if you're taking cycled liverock from the tank its been in for the last few weeks, its not ging to contain a large amount of beneficial bacteria. This is the bacteria you need to maintain the tank. Therefore you need to slowly introduce new fish to the tank in order to allow bacteria levels to ramp up and be able handle the increased bioload.

I agree with you when suggest reducing variables to increase success, but I dont think you adequately express how you can do this and still be successful. If you're going to give a new aquarist a set up with new liverock, and livesand, a hydrometer,and a simple ammonia alert,and express the importance of an appropriate skimmer and adequate circulation, dont you think you should explain why these items are important? It seems as if you're main thrust here is not to confuse the new aquarist with a lot of complicated concepts that are actually important to understand to be successful long term. Just telling someone to do a water change when the ammonia alert hits a certain level doesnt explain why they need to do this.

Allow them to taste success with out the need or pressure of knowing the biological aspects of such aquarium.With success will come the natural desire to know why,how and when.They will be better off learning from that set up with out the temptation to add to ,as a result of a test taken from a newly set up un stable changing aquarium,that is what took me years to relize[better left alone].

This assumes the person will not be interested in learning about the biological aspects of the aquarium and will take your word (or whoever is assisting them in the initial set up) that this is what they "need to do" and not go any further without consulting you (or whoever). IME, people rarely take things at face value. Telling someone who spends a significant amount of money to get into this hobby "Because I said so" doesnt cut it. I've found over the years that explaining things and giving them information actually answers more questions and prevents issues. Many people get into this hobby based on a limited experiance with the critters we are trying to keep. They saw a movie, or went to a public aquarium, or went snorkeling or scuba diving, and want to try to keep these animals in their own home. Without understanding the basics, you're gooing to have a hard time convincing a new aquarist that they cant keep a carpet anemone in their newly set up 10 gallon tank with a sea horse. They need rocks and sand right? They've got rocks in their back yard, and home depot sells sand....why do they need to spend their money on your rocks and sand. What do you mean by "Live Rock"?

Testing parimeters will be learned with time.

Really strongly disagree with this. You need to know what the water parameters are in your tank. You did not mention it here, but in previous threads you had mentioned that you rely on your animals health to keep you informed of your tanks health. I do to. However, I have a fair amount of experiance with my animals, and know what they should look like therefore, I know when they look unhappy and when something is wrong. Testing water parameters will tell you exactly what is wrong. Just watching my critters will tell that something is wrong, not what is wrong. Testing water parameters and emphasizing stability in water parameters is absolutely necessary IMO. But you can make it easier by explaining to the new aquarist what parameters they need to pay attention to intially. Also, if we're talking about the new aquarist and a FO system, they really need to be aware of a few parameters initially: Ammonia, pH, Temperature, salinity and nitrates. If they are interested in keeping a reef tank though....you're gonna need to tell them about calcium, alkalinity, and other parameters (magnesium is the other one that really comes to mind, but not needed for a softy reef). So their choices on what they want to keep will also dictate what they have to know.

Such an aquarium will allow them to add the live stock in which they planned and not reley on ''hardy'' fish that will only become a unwanted nuesance in time such as damsel's.Teach the importance of religously caried out waterchange habbits and maintance techniques.

I very much agree with planning and learning about what you want to keep in the tank. I also agree with not putting "starter" fish in the tank and stressing the importance of adhering to solid tank maintenance techniques...but other than water changes, carbon changes, and skimmer cleanings...what other techniques are referring to? Water parameter tests???
How much more time does it take to do a test on water parameters if you're already doing the water change and the rest?

More new aquarist fail as a result of additions made to their aquarium with products they dont understand

Absolutely, 100% correct IMO.

If I have read and understand the basic premise of the last sentance I quoted...you're pretty much saying an educated aquarist is more likely to be a sucessful aquarist. In that I agree completely.

More new aquarist fail as a result of additions made to their aquarium with products they dont understand,as a result of advice from a well intended hobiest,after relaying a test of a new [still maturing]aquarium,resulting in added varieables that have now spun out of their control.

This is why I and many others are very adamant about not adding anything you cant test for.

I realize your overall goal is to make this hobby more enjoyable and more successful for newcommers, but I think that by not telling them about the water parameter tests, you're short changing them on necessary information. If you can explain it well enough, and use terms that Joe sixpack is going to understand, they will follow along and have a better realization of what's going on in their tank.

Nick

 

[MikeS]

It's important to realize that there are very few hard and fast rules in this hobby, and there are many paths to the same destination so to speak. Having said that, how would one propose to outline a "basic" setup for a newcommer to the hobby? There are many different approaches to tank keeping, such as bare bottom, DSB's, plenum systems, heavily skimmed, no skimmer, ect ect ect, and there are many different types of tanks...SPS only, mixed "garden style" tanks, softie tanks, FOWLR, ect ect ect. Each approach and each tank has somewhat different "basic" needs. For example, equipment that may be critical for the success of a BB SPS tank may not be nearly as critical for a DSB softie tank. The type of tank and approch to keeping it is going to define the "basic" setup.

On the use of LR in a new tank for purposes of adding large quantities of bacteria...there is absolutely nothing new about this concept...I was taught to add water and some substrate from an established tank to a new one over 2 decades ago, it's been around awhile. (the use of bottled bacteria cultures and prepackaged live sand is a whole other debate, one which DonW addressed well IMO) While this can definately speed up the whole process, one would be mistaken to assume that this automatically makes a tank stable and ready for a high bioload. I don't like presenting to a newcommer the biological processes taking place in the tank as an initial "cycle" that can be minimized or avoided, as this simply isn't the case...rather I think is is very important to explain to the newcommer that this "cycle" is something that is occuring constantly in the tank, it never ends. I also think it's important that they understand that this "cycle" is dynamic, and it is in a constant state of flux. Add more bioload, and there will be changes. Does the beginner need to know the intricate details of bacterial metabolisim to understand this? No, I don't think so. But the more you know, the better you will be able to understand the "how, what and why" of occurances in your tank. And understanding them will IMO go a very long way towards helping one be sucessful in this hobby.

To many of us, aside from being an enjoyable hobby, our tanks represent a substaintial investment of time and money. Setting up the tank and then learning about the water parameters and such is kind of like putting the carriage before the horse. IMO you will enjoy the hobby much more and save some time and money to boot if you have that basic knowledge in place beforehand, rather than simply diving in with a new tank, learning by trial and error, and constantly trying to keep your learning curve ahead of things happening in your tank you don't understand.

MikeS

 

[krisfal]

ultimatly, no one can tell the poster why their ph is low other then the poster. He/she will have to take all of that information, and think for themselves and figure out why they have a low ph by testing and experimenting with their own set up.

Very well said. That is what I like best about this site as a source of information. I can get enough information to think about my particular situation and figure out what is happening in my tank.

Although I basically hired out the set up of my first tank having only done basic research, the person who set it up for me was also taught me about the tank and what all of the equipment was for. One of the things he did was to refer me to this site.

My first tank cycled while I learned how to test my water, adjust equipment and maintain the tank. I began to explore reef frontiers and found a lot of information, much more than I could absorb at the time. However, I was able to weed through for information on what I needed at the time. Over time I have delved deeper into more advanced topics and my knowledge increases each day I visit.

I disagree that the individuals offering help are trying to show off or baffle me with BS. I feel they are offering me their experiences and knowledge, providing me information to figure out what is happening with my tank.

While I'll admit initially only skimming information regarding CA, ALK and MG. At that time I was not ready for that information and did not need it. But I knew it would be available when I needed it. Now I need it and have been reading all I can about it, so I can think about what I am trying to accomplish and figure out how to maintain proper levels in my newer SPS tank.

If the mods and experienced people here talked down to posters with initial inquiries regarding what is happening with their tanks I would have found little value in returning here day after day. I want to know why not just how and I feel that the atmosphere here and the way information is offered is why this is an excellent place to come and learn.

 

[ecobalance]

awesome replys,except for don's

I will try to answer all questions without writing a novel,as they were all excelent responces.I still havn't figured out how to do that quote in blue thing so i won't.But i will say planet reef and his last responce[or paragraff]is a prime example of what im talking about.All that mumbo jumbo[if you take offence to me calling it mumbo jumbo,than that is just sad]would have a new aquarist thinking he needed suppliments and buffers and who knows what else,and next thing you know he has a perfectly mixed cocktail of an aquarium,with no clue if what he or she did is helping or not.Well i can tell you that it is most definatly not.Were talking about the begining of time for that aquarium,and i can 100% assure you that every test that he or she might take is going to be just that a color on a test strip or a color of a vial.Untill that aquarium is a minimum of 3 months old adding anything to it would be a crime against mother nature.New aquariums sway all sorts of ways,but if close attention was paid to the ingredents than nothing can help a low ph,or high alk,or low calicum[definatly nothing a new aquarist should be worring about]better or more efficently than time.So this is where i explain,and hopefully answer the rest of the great questions and responces.By holding the hand ,so to speak of a new aquarist as they venture into their first set up ,i have found that they not only aquire a want to know more and more,and ask questions about why certain things are so important in a new set up,[like cured live rock,live sand,and the ammonia they need to remain live]but they learn it in a hands on touch,feel ,smell type of way that is sure to stick in the brain.They set up the step by step method with confidence,not worry and fear,and achieve success,which in turn builds more desire to know how that worked.And i always have and always will tell them not to worry about any test results untill that aquarium is up and running,with fish and what ever their equiptment and volume will allow,as far as inverts and corals,and then and only than will i begin to encourage testing parimeters that will aply to that particular set-up.Because i know from experance[not books]that a newly set up aquarium is a very unstable thin in it's infant stage and les than perfect parimeters a the norm,and way to far advanced biology to even try to understand;or heven forbid fix.Once that aquarium is stablized than the occasional need for buffers or trasce elements,may be needed from time to time.I have found this way of teaching allows the questions to be asked as the actual cituation occures,examp[diatom bloom,green algae]high nitrates,etc.and there isn't a equation that has been complicated by an aquarist who has been adding this and that.Another question i want to answer is the one about me leaveing the newby no other choice but to come to me every time something is a mis,and be reliant on me like a sort of crutch.This could not be further from the truth.By this far into their first set up the aquarium fever has bit them and now they are free to do whatever they wish and wherever they want to do it,but on thing for sure their doing it with an aquarium that is a untouched and tamperd with eco-system strong and sound,and ready for any test a new aquarist can throw at it.So now on to my new found frend Don,whose pm's are both a delight and a plethra of colorfull language and information.On more than one occasion you have expressed your suspisions that i am only in this for the profit and like many before me just interested in a quick sale.Well how helping some one to be sucessfull on their first aquarium venture,in which i loose out on all that suppliment and testing equiptment,and all the other quick fixes that go with it sales can transalate to what you say,i'm just not sure.I am sure that you will tell me though.I not only tape drywall regularly,set up and maintain aquariums in the evening,and find time to open my shop for a coiuple hours a day.But i also hold a 100% success rate on both my set ups and my advice of leave well enough alonefor my customers.If you can find one in which would dispute this claim than i will admit my ways are less than professional.....and lay my sword down at the all mighty Don's feet.

 

[ecobalance]

hopefully

there were no feelings hurt or persons attacked in the writing of this reply.[I'm wearing kit gloves i swear ''what can be done with less is done with more in vane''

 

[ecobalance]

mamamammamm

''Show a man a cool fish and feed him another day.Sell a man a cool fish and never feed it again''life taper,frend to fish and all around swell guy/

 

[MikeS]

All that mumbo jumbo[if you take offence to me calling it mumbo jumbo,than that is just sad]would have a new aquarist thinking he needed suppliments and buffers and who knows what else,and next thing you know he has a perfectly mixed cocktail of an aquarium,with no clue if what he or she did is helping or not.

I don't believe that this occurs nearly to the degree you are claiming it does. Generally, if you read through most of the threads here, members attempt to help newcommers by providing them with a good basic answer to their question, and usually this help comes with some more in-depth information in the hopes of helping the newcommer gain some knowledge and understanding. Do some of the responsed contain too much information, or confusing and or/conflicting information? Sure they do. That is unavoidable. But generally, that is not the norm.

Second, I think some of the weight here needs to be put on the newcommers' shoulders. If you have somebody who is haphazardly adding things to his/her aquarium based simply on something they read online, without doing some good research and attempting to gain some understanding on the how and why of it, then they are ultimately responsible for any negative occurances as a result. To me, it's just plain old common sense not to do anything to or add anything to your aquarium until you have a pretty good understanding of how it works, the proper way to do it, and what you need to be looking for in your tank while you are doing it. Those who continually do not do this are IMO going to be far less likely to succeed in this hobby no matter how simple or complex the information is given to them.

Well i can tell you that it is most definatly not.Were talking about the begining of time for that aquarium,and i can 100% assure you that every test that he or she might take is going to be just that a color on a test strip or a color of a vial.Untill that aquarium is a minimum of 3 months old adding anything to it would be a crime against mother nature.New aquariums sway all sorts of ways,but if close attention was paid to the ingredents than nothing can help a low ph,or high alk,or low calicum[definatly nothing a new aquarist should be worring about]better or more efficently than time.So this is where i explain,and hopefully answer the rest of the great questions and responces.By holding the hand ,so to speak of a new aquarist as they venture into their first set up ,i have found that they not only aquire a want to know more and more,and ask questions about why certain things are so important in a new set up,[like cured live rock,live sand,and the ammonia they need to remain live]but they learn it in a hands on touch,feel ,smell type of way that is sure to stick in the brain.They set up the step by step method with confidence,not worry and fear,and achieve success,which in turn builds more desire to know how that worked.And i always have and always will tell them not to worry about any test results untill that aquarium is up and running

Isn't that kind of like teaching a teenager who has never been behind the wheel of a car how to drive on a busy freeway? If the level of understanding that a newcommer has is nothing more than "colors on a test strip", then IMO that person is simply not ready to set up an aquarium. Bad things can happen pretty fast in an aquarium, and the hobbyist who is armed with some knowledge is far more likely to be able to reason his/her way through it. I'm a firm believer that there are some basic things that should be understood prior to setting up a tank, and the nitrogen cycle in particular is one of them. The vast majority of problems one experiences in a new tank are biological in nature, and some good basic knowledge of it will allow the hobbyist to understand what is happening, why it is happening, and what can be done about it.

MikeS

 

[DonW]

So now on to my new found frend Don,whose pm's are both a delight and a plethra of colorfull language and information.On more than one occasion you have expressed your suspisions that i am only in this for the profit and like many before me just interested in a quick sale.Well how helping some one to be sucessfull on their first aquarium venture,in which i loose out on all that suppliment and testing equiptment,and all the other quick fixes that go with it sales can transalate to what you say,i'm just not sure.I am sure that you will tell me though.I not only tape drywall regularly,set up and maintain aquariums in the evening,and find time to open my shop for a coiuple hours a day.But i also hold a 100% success rate on both my set ups and my advice of leave well enough alonefor my customers.If you can find one in which would dispute this claim than i will admit my ways are less than professional.....and lay my sword down at the all mighty Don's feet.

Yes and I was adult enough to keep it in a the PM section and not bring it into the public forum, unlike yourself. Now that youve opened it up to the public forum I'll just respond.
You have been a sore spot in the RF community since you started posting. Popping off with bad advice wether the intensions are good or not. You contradict yourself around ever corner. Youve given no reason to believe that your motives are anything but profit based. Youve been asked to explain your dangerous wisecrack comments and have only declined for not responded at all. In all the time that Ive been a member here ive never seen the mods have to close so many threads or delete so many post from a single person in such a short period of time. Your need to thrive on contraversy does not belong here. Take it to your shrink and get help. If you want to continue this discussion I will be happy to do it by pm or email there is no place for it in the forums.

 

[Brenden]

So now on to my new found frend Don,whose pm's are both a delight and a plethra of colorfull language and information.

I thought he only talked to me that way. Now I am mad

 

[Planet Reef]

But i will say planet reef and his last responce[or paragraff]is a prime example of what im talking about.All that mumbo jumbo[if you take offence to me calling it mumbo jumbo,than that is just sad]would have a new aquarist thinking he needed suppliments and buffers and who knows what else,and next thing you know he has a perfectly mixed cocktail of an aquarium,with no clue if what he or she did is helping or not.

If they were using test kits, they WOULD KNOW if what they did helped or not. When I help a newbie set up a new system, I expect work out of them. I give them a binder and this binder contains preprinted sheets for date, SG, Ammonia Level, Nitrite Level, Nitrate Level, Calcium Level, Alkalinity level, plus temperature of their tank, plus an area for comments. When they come in and the comment section says "My zoanthids aren't opening", the first thing I look for is the temperature reading they took right before coming into the store. If their comment section says, "My coralline algae has stopped growing", then I'll look to other parameters. Most people simply bring me their water and I just have them write down the readings on each test. While I'm doing the test, I'm talking the whole time and EXPLAINING why this parameter is important and by the time their tank is cycled, they have a basic understanding of the Nitrogen cycle, why large temperature and pH swings are not desirable, etc., etc., etc.
[/QUOTE]

I highly suspect that we will never agree because my attitude is, "Teach them" and your attitude is, "Tell them what to do". I cannot tell you how many hours I put into RF's library under my personal user account name Curtswearing. I've also spent many hours crafting posts that explain things in layman's terms why XYZ is important.

Regardless, you do appear to prefer a sharp tongue and most people on RF actually like each other and joke around with each other and call each other, PM each other, and have a good time. I suspect that if you adopted a less corrosive tone with your posts, you would enjoy RF much more.

 

[emora]

Hello ecobalance.

First of all, I have to say that if you post without the simplest regards to the rules of English grammar, your message becomes a serious challenge to the reader. Run-on sentences that form unending paragraphs, full of gramatical and spelling erros will do more to turn away a reader than anything else.

Second, the easyest way to be wrong is by making generalizations. You cant call everyone who posts a question a paranoid schitzo nor can you insinuate that everyone who writes long answers is a bull****ter. Doing so only leads me to question your intentions.

The online communities are full of people of all kinds of people. If an online forum has enough members it really is micro-model of the population it represents. Most posts get a myriad of answers. Some are short, some long, some right, some are wrong (boy does that ever sound like a Dr. Seuss sentence ). Someone may answer with a on liner that answer's the posters question. Other may respond with a very high level explanation that fulfills any doubt. Hoever the accuracy may be lost because it blows right over the other persons head. Nonetheless, I do not believe we should lower the level of intelligence to the least common denominator. Instead, we should motivate people to probe for clarity.

It is the aquarists' responsibility to sift the answers and find the truth that works for them. It is also their responsibility to ask for clarification if they do not understand an answer.

I think you are partialy right. I too have seen many cases where a perfectly accurate answer can be incomprehensible because the person obviously lacks the prior knowledge to understand it. In teaching there is a concept called "scafolding". It basically means that you have to build the student's understaning gradually. Once they understand the basics you can add more complexity, and so on. However, this takes a lot of time.

Personaly, I remember many cases when I was learning where I would read something and think "sh*t, I have a lot to learn". But that merely used that as a cue to point me in the direction of what I needed to learn next. I enjoy learning this was. But again, not everyone is the same.

Sometimes people are obliged to answer without prior knowledge of the other person's level of knowledge about the hobby or chemistry or mechanics of plumbing or lighting or whatever. Often, understanding the other persons knowledge level would require much more information than they provide in their question. Perhaps it would require several more questions and more time than the answerer might be able to afford in that given moment. But I honestly believe most people who participate on the forums, do so in a sincere attempt to help.

Again, as I said before, it is each one's responsibility to look for or ask for clarification of anything they dont understand.

 

[emora]

By they way, I honestly believe that any aquarist who is not willing to take the time to learn, has no business running a marine aquarium. They should either find someone to run their aquarium for them or simply find a more suitable hobby.

Ignorance, in this hobby, inevitably leads to disaster.

 

[morgan]

now i did agree with ecobalance on the live rock live sand debate and obviously mike s said he was told that 2 decades ago so that pretty much goes your argument on a new way (if any one eles read that thread before being deleted)
when i read your first post i was ammussed by your thoughts because i to thought that alot of people not this board but people in my local communtiy are stuck in ideas that are arcaic i am open to any suggestion of new or old methods
but your problem is the same as what your complaining about you want people to listen to your ideas and follow yours but not anyone eles's isnt this what u are compaling about i think u need to stop pointing fingers and look in the mirror
and if this was RC youd be long gone by now