Polyp extension

[alazo1]

Hello, my sps corals have little pe when lights are on. They are extended at night though. I have'nt checked for red bugs but if I did have them would the pe be out at night?.

Another reason may be that I added a bicolor angel a few months ago. It is about this time that pe started to reduce so this could very well be the culprid. It does seem to pick at everything including sps. Why did I ever get this guy. Anyone have any ideas on how to get this guy out of the tank short of tearing it down?.

thanks,
Albert

 

[steve-s]

Welcome to ReefFrontiers.

It is actually normal for the poyps to be out at night and not during the day. It is typically only in captive care that the polyps will start coming out during the daylight hours. Nothing really unusual at all. Over time they may change.

The angel may indeed be nipping at the corals so do keep an eye on it. Bare spots, tips missing, necrosis and so on.

Just to be on the safe side, how about a run down of the tank set up, chemistry and the water quality numbers?

Cheers
Steve

 

[shallowreef]

alazo1 Type in under the serch for this forum Polyp Extension and you should get a whole list of threads related to polyp extension that will be able to help you out. I am dealing with a similar issue right now under the thread "Hey all you SPS Pros". I'm shocked Nikki hasn't jumped on this and tossed you a few articles already?

Good Luck!!

 

[alazo1]

Thanks Steve,
Here are the tank parameters.
90 gallon , 10 gallon refugium dumps to main tank (lights on 24/7) and 12 gallon tuperware sump.
Tank is BB after having alot of issues with algea on DSB.
ETS 5-2 as skimmer.
Just started using filter sock (clean every 4 days).
Calc Reactor (homemade 2 stage)
Kalkwasser dripped for topoff water. It is on a still reservoir.

Lighting 2x400 20k xm (on 5 hours) , 2 vho 110 watt on 12 hours.
Changed to the 20k's about a month ago from 15k's. The 20k's were 2 months old so lighting is fairly new. Vho's are about 4 months old.

Though corals have been around for a while I recently moved (2 1/2 months)
I've never really have had explosive growth like I see in some of these before and after shots. The monti cap has not had growth tips in a while. I'd like to have him lower down in the reef but no room for him,

Calc = around 420
Alk = around 9
Mag = around 1300
Phosphate = 0 (Salifert)
Nitrite = 0 (Salifert)
Temp = 78-82
Salinity = 1.025

I feed corals everyday with Coral Vitalizer and rotifiers every few days.
Adding Zeo's Amino's as well.
I feed the fish (1 yellow tang, algea blenny, 6 chromis, 1 clown, 1 bc angel) pretty much every day equivalent to 1 cube.

PE during the day was fairly good until a few days after adding the bicolor angel. I don't see any bare spots on corals. When I do I guess it will be time to break the reef down and capture the angel.

thanks again,
Albert

 

[steve-s]

Lighting 2x400 20k xm (on 5 hours) , 2 vho 110 watt on 12 hours.
Changed to the 20k's about a month ago from 15k's. The 20k's were 2 months old so lighting is fairly new.

This will probabley have much to do with it if these corals are/where well established and not newly aquired wild corals as is often the case.

Did you acclimate the corals to the higher K bulbs after the switch? If so, how and for what duration? Did the corals have polyp extension during the day prior to the bulb switch? How deep is the tank to warrant 400 watt MH?

FWIW, the slower growth will mainly be attributed to the K level of the bulb. The higher the kelvin rating, the slower the growth of the corals. If you wish to improve the growth rate/overall health of the corals, you might want to consider something closer to 10k. You have the ability to wash out the potential yellow with actinic VHO's so there less aesthetic issues. Just remember to re acclimate the corals.

With a BB tank, water flow is key. What is your set up like for that?

Cheers
Steve

 

[alazo1]

The acclimation from 400 15k xm to 400 20xm was to lower the photoperiod from 8 hours to 5 that it is currently on. PE was not good before the switch. It really seems that the time corralation was when adding the bicolor.

The tank is only 23" deep (standard 80 gallon 48x18x23). I think originally I said it was a 90, mistake it's an 80.

Flow is from 4 mj1200, on all day except 1/2 hour off everyday. 2 will turn off for 1/2 hour, a little later the other 2 turn off. I have a seio (I think the 600 gph) on the bottom to keep detritus floating. Most of the rockwork is elevated with pvc. One section is visible and pretty ugly but will have to do for now till I get some branch rock to cover the legs.

thanks,
Albert

 

[steve-s]

The acclimation from 400 15k xm to 400 20xm was to lower the photoperiod from 8 hours to 5 that it is currently on....The tank is only 23" deep (standard 80 gallon 48x18x23). I think originally I said it was a 90, mistake it's an 80.

With that kind of depth, you really don't need 400 w bulbs. As far as the light acclimation, altering the photoperiod is really not the best choice. Shading the lights or elevating them works much better and allows you to ease the tank into the new spectrum (or intensity). Changing the photoperiod doesn't protect them (corals etal) from these changes.

PE was not good before the switch. It really seems that the time corralation was when adding the bicolor.

So the polyps came out during the day before adding the angel?
The bulbs where changes a month ago, how long ago was the angel actually added? Could very well be your cause, you just haven't witnessed it in the act.

Flow is from 4 mj1200, on all day except 1/2 hour off everyday. 2 will turn off for 1/2 hour, a little later the other 2 turn off. I have a seio (I think the 600 gph) on the bottom to keep detritus floating. Most of the rockwork is elevated with pvc. One section is visible and pretty ugly but will have to do for now till I get some branch rock to cover the legs.

You have a good amount of total flow but how is it distributed? That could also be an issue. If the water flow is sustained in a single direction rather than chaotic (non linear), it can be a problem.

Cheers
Steve

 

[fishermann]

Using a filter sock can be taking enough fine food out of the water and the corals well not waste energy extending their polyps. I used to use a sock and I took it off and only use it when I blow off the rock and clean the tank. I to am BB [4 yrs.] and have noticed my sps have alot better coloring since removing the felt sock about 9 mos. ago. Running BB you well not get the polyp extension that a dsb tank does, that is what I have noticed with most all bb verses dsb that I have seen, so I think it is a trade off for other benefits.

 

[alazo1]

With that kind of depth, you really don't need 400 w bulbs. As far as the light acclimation, altering the photoperiod is really not the best choice. Shading the lights or elevating them works much better and allows you to ease the tank into the new spectrum (or intensity). Changing the photoperiod doesn't protect them (corals etal) from these changes.

I went from 175's a few years ago to 400's. I've been thinking about stepping down to 250's (maybe next bulb changeout). I really did'nt think I needed to acclimate the corals to the new light being that I was going to a bulb with less par (20k vs 15k). I'll put a few layers of the window screening.

So the polyps came out during the day before adding the angel?
The bulbs where changes a month ago, how long ago was the angel actually added? Could very well be your cause, you just haven't witnessed it in the act.

The issue started at about the same time I got the bicolor, about 2 months ago. I think he may be the culprid. I do see it picking on corals. He basically spends alot of the day picking on everything. If he had a nose and fingers he'd be a nose picker for sure ..LOL. Anyone have any tricks to get this guy out of the tank. I tried a litlle plastic box that has a door on top, you put food inside and eventually the fish will get in. This guy avoids that trap , I think he is pretty smart.

You have a good amount of total flow but how is it distributed? That could also be an issue. If the water flow is sustained in a single direction rather than chaotic (non linear), it can be a problem.

I have 2 ph's on each side of the tank (lenghtwise) pointing at about 30 degree angles. Also the seio is at the left back corner. I've had this setup for about 1 year before the pe issue so I don't think this may be the problem.

Using a filter sock can be taking enough fine food out of the water and the corals well not waste energy extending their polyps. I used to use a sock and I took it off and only use it when I blow off the rock and clean the tank. I to am BB [4 yrs.] and have noticed my sps have alot better coloring since removing the felt sock about 9 mos. ago. Running BB you well not get the polyp extension that a dsb tank does, that is what I have noticed with most all bb verses dsb that I have seen, so I think it is a trade off for other benefits.

The sock is only a few weeks old and was thinking the same thing before I decided to start with it. That's interesting in what you say about pe on dsb vs bb. It does make sense.

Albert

 

[steve-s]

The feeding response does make sense for sure but I would definately keep a strict eye on the angel. It really does sound more and more like the culprit. Remove the filter sock and see what difference it makes. If the extension improves, problem solved. If not, possibley time for a fish exchange.

RE:Bulb changes. Yes, altering the kelvin can be just as damaging as changing the intensity up or down. They should always be acclimted as far as I know.

Cheers
Steve

 

[alazo1]

Thanks for your suggestions everyone. I put a layer of screen to cut down on light and will watch that angelfish.

thanks,
Albert

 

[NaH2O]

It really sounds to me like the angel is the issue here, IMO. Acclimating to a bulb color change is a necessity, as I've seen a tank bleach from changing 10K lights to 14K without acclimation.

Here is a thread for you showing a dwarf angel going at a coral. The problem was lack of polyp extension, but even after the fish was removed, the corals didn't extend their polyps....until new growth appeared. The new growth extended its polyps, but the part of the coral getting picked on did not extend. After you see the picture, you can scroll down and read about the new growth polyp extension: The Sherman Tank (Photo Scrapbook) - page 7, post #94

As for catching your angel - I was going to suggest the fish trap. How long have you tried it for? If you only feed into the trap, then I would think eventually the fish will go in. I had to hide behind the couch to get a blenny even near my trap, and ended up having my husband hold the string to drop the door. As soon as I left the room, the fish went in...go figure

Let us know how everything does!

 

[kevinpo]

Hello Albert and welcome to Reef Frontiers!
I believe your problem is with the angelfish. It is quite common with the Centropyge family to be nippers of both corals and clams. Although you hear reports often of them being safe in a reef tank they are very hit and miss. Usually what happens in such cases of reported success is that they are good for up to 2 years then as the bio load increases when the fish begin to mature the owner reduces feeding to reduce unwanted algae growth. The fish just adapts to the change by finding a new food source.
Many times however they nip from the onset.

In regards to removal of the angelfish. Buy a yard or two of bridal vail at the local fabric store. Lay it down the front of the glass and up the rockwork. You can attach three pieces of fishing line along the front edge and three more along the back. Leave the ends open to allow the fish to swim in during feeding. In a day or two the fish will all swim into the makeshift net. Just pull up the ends and you will have captured all the fish. Using a regular fish net remove the angel.

Regarding the lighting, if you have been running the new lights for a month already they are acclimation at this point. What ballast are you using to drive the halides? Both the XM 15,000K and the 20,000K bulbs are quite weak and short-lived IME when driven by a PFO HQI ballast. They are also not enough difference in PAR to require acclimation unless you ran the previous set for a year or more. I got about 5 months out of the bulbs above. A halide photoperiod of 9 hours works best for high light SPS corals for growth and coloration.

Polyp extension is certainly not an indicator of SPS coral health but rather a response. Some SPS show little or no polyp extension day or night while others polyp all the time located side by side in the same tank. A coral that normally polyps then suddenly stops can be an indicator of some type of change in water quality or environmental change, so it can be a useful observation in certain circumstances.

Regards,
Kevin

 

[Clockwork]

I am going to agree with Kevin and Nikki. I too think its the angle . I have had one for 3 years and she does go after polyps on leathers , zooanthids and sps polyps. I just haven't brought myself to get rid of her yet . As the previous owner had her for 5 years before my 3 . Also I agree on PE I get awesome daytime PE on most corals and little on others while those that show little daytime PE show alot at night .

 

[alazo1]

Thanks again everyone. So far I've put a diffuser on the lights (windowscreen). I too think it is the angel and want to go after it. So far I've had no success getting him to go in the trap. It's one of those little plastic containers with a lid on it. I've put a piece of fish but he does'nt come in. The Chromis's and peppermints come in no problem.

Kevin, can you elaborate on the net method that you mentioned, I'm having a hard time understanding how it is done. If I can't get him out with some kind of trap I'll have to tear down the tank. I think I can just do half of the reef and hopefully getting him to that side.

Albert