Probiotics, What?

[rugie]

A few days ago on posting in a thread I used the term probiotics. and as usual I stuck my foot in my mouth, I was not aware that probiotics was such a vague subject and took it for granted that everyone knew and understood probiotics. when mojoreef asked me to remove my foot and elaborate on probiotics I thought "poot wid it" but then thought yes why not. so this thread and subsequent posts may be of no interest to many and many may say so what it is a word. but it is a descriptive word it tells us that a certain criteria fits that word and that when used in context it does not mince words or meaning "PROBIOTIC"
is by definition "that which promotes life" probiotics are now coming into wide spread use by mankind (one is thru the ingestion of spirulina algae). probiotics are used for disease control, as boosters for the immune response system, as a facultative anaerobic bacteria that oxidizes pollutants. non-pathogenic gram positive bacillus microbes are intrinsic to probiotics, spirulina algae functions as a probiotic due to the vast array of nutrients, minerals and compounds etc found in it's structure. a few examples of probiotics would be---- a bag of garden fertilizer, that is 100% inorganic- it will help your garden grow and is a useful product. VS a bag of dried cow manure
that will provide close to the same nutrients, but with added benefits. it will provide food for earthworms to aerate the soil it will retain moisture, it contains enzymes, it will help against soil compaction and most importantly it will harbor and proliferate bacteria. all aquarium bacteria products are probiotic in that they provide select bacteria in huge numbers that can diminish lesser bacteria by crowding and starving them out. these probiotic bacteria are loosely called "GOOD" bacteria, this can equate to a petunia in a rose garden. the concept of good/bad bacteria has a way to go yet. when maggots hatch on a dead mouse and start to devour it they create enzymes to dissolve the flesh and then drink the liquid, probiotics are involved here also. special strains of bacteria come along with the egg when it is laid. usually enzymes and bacteria work hand in hand towards a predetermined end. enzymes are catalysts, different bacteria can hook up with them to perform a wide variety of deeds, (good or bad) probiotics are known beneficial bacteria, microbes that are purposely put into action to remove non beneficial bacteria. probiotics are used in aquaria for several reasons, ie: as nitrate,nitrite, ammonia reducers as sludge removers by eating the sludge and passing the end product to the above reducers and on and on. if we want to remember the role of proboitics and what they are, it is simply, a known beneficial bacteria put into use with a purpose. if you would care to add to this thread or want to discuss it in more detail feel free to post and we will kick it around a while.

 

[Krish]

From what I've just read above in the previous post, Probiotics sounds like an interesting topic to discuss and also an interesting concept...One that can and does take place naturally in "nature" and, even more interestingly to us as hobbyist, in our aquariums. I've never heard of the term before the "LR crumbling thread" so I really have nothing to add. I'll just follow along and see what I can learn...

BTW, great suggestion Mike for Rugie to start up a thread on Probiotics and I think it was cool of you Rugie to take it on...

 

[NaH2O]

Rugie - thanks for posting this topic.

I can get the basic concept here, and correct me please if I don't have it right. I don't want to misunderstand what's being discussed. With regards to bacteria and probiotics. By introducing specific strains of bacteria, they will out compete other strains of bacteria thereby eliminating them. Since the terms good/bad bacteria were used, basically the good bacteria beat out the bad. Determining what is a good or bad bacteria has me lost a bit in the tank environment with good water quality. In a mature cycled aquarium, I can't get a handle on introducing bacteria without it dying off. Wouldn't the food source get used by the bacteria already in the system? The new bacteria would die without a food source, and the subsequent release of nutrients would either create an algae bloom or cause more bacteria in the system to mulitply to consume what died. Once the new food source is eliminated (die off of bacteria without a food source), then there are bacteria dying off from the loss of a food source (it was consumed and they can't be supported without it), releasing nutrients and possibly creating more algae bloom. Even if the specific strains of bacteria are introduced slowly, then wouldn't the system become dependent on this influx? Shouldn't we be shooting for good water quality?

 

[Boomer]

Nikki

 

[plack]

I read a little bit about probiotics use and it was used there and tested in what looked like lobster in a farm raised setting and the lobster were fairing better but as for the bacteria and how it got introduced and it's effect's I still don't understand what took place or how that helps aquarium bacteria that dies in hours so i'll tag along.

 

[rugie]

probiotics

nikki, thanks for your interest. Water quality terminolgy usually (but not always) refers to parameters. so the association of bacteria with water quality is not an indicator. I tried to not lean on the term good/bad algae and made an effort to discredit those distinctions. in an environment such as an aquarium with live sand/live rock and various lifeforms there will always be bacteria present, the degree of beneficial/ non benificial bacteria changes on an almost hourly basis due to the ever changing conditions in the tank, ie: increased electrical load (furnace running, dryer running, washing machine running etc) will slow down the water movement motors in the aquarium. feeding time of the critters, change in temp of water, (going to bath the kids so up the furnace)temp ch'g when doing a water exchange, cleaning the inside walls of the tank thereby dumping a phytoplankton load into the water column, etc,etc. no vaiable environment is free of bacteria, even an operating room. that is why every thing is sterlized, gloves are worn, masks are worn, the sugerical site on the patient is swabbed with anti-bacteria agents, are they good or bad bacteria? they as a whole are considered "bad" for this specific event and are destroyed, but bacteria still exist in the operating room, (on the bodies of the medical people, on the walls,floors on the underside of the furnishings and on/in the patient. every time a new critter, rock etc is added to a tank the bacteria population changes. many, many of our tanks contain disease bearing strains of bacteria "VIBRO" for one, but an outbreak is averted (usually) by the presence of known beneficial bacteria it is not within the relm of these bacteria to kill off every other bacteria as that is not possable to do given the type of furnishings in the tank. (rock etc). as most of us know that when a certain bioload is established in a tank it is taken care of by the adjusting of the beneficial bacteria ( the aerobic & anaerobics) but if we come along and dump in 2 new fish, 1 new coral and some of that new food we have been wanting to try then the bioload becomes askew. the above benificials are in low numbers and the non benificials are waiting in the bleachers to party. and usually bad things follow, hair algae, cyno,cloudy water lack of desolved oxygen ( the non benificials love low oxygen levels) I would like to make it clear that alleged "good/bad" bacteria is not cut and dried
what is "bad" in one application is not always "bad in another application. thus my reference to a petunia in a rose garden.it is supprising to learn that usualy when a bacteria strain is rendered inactive, that many will survive by going into a dormant state to rise again when the conditions are right. that is because a antibacteria was not the rendering agent, had that been the case all strains would have suffered.

 

[plack]

I do think I understand, bacteria levels change when any number of things are changed. I imagine even skimming changes the bacterial playing field and so it by itself could be seen as probiotic if I understand this also so could ozone generation or a water change . Now Spirulina is an algea that is considered probiotic as it has properties that help kidneys and liver enhance skin color in fish . Marc Weiss has products that seem to promise alot and mention the probiotic effect see this web link
http://www.marcweissco.com/marinereefproducts.htm#immuno

Has anyone here ever used these mar weiss products like coral/reef/spectra/bacter/imuno----vital ? If so how did it do
Paul

 

[rugie]

probiotics

plack A water change would not be pro or anti as this would just be reducing the total of all bacteria present in the water ( beneficial as well as non beneficial) get dumped. protein skimming and ozone are indiscriminate, they both (as well as uva) waste bacteria (good,bad,ugly) they do not know boundaries. skimming is the one worst scavenger of food sources for coral (in that close to all coral are carnivores)

 

[rugie]

probiotics

Krish75, thanx for the compliment!

 

[Krish]

Krish75, thanx for the compliment!

No problem Rugie ....Now teach away! The thread is going great so far...

 

[plack]

but rugie I disagree !! won't waterchanges take and lower the overall nitrate levels as protien skimming and ozone all eleminate excess nutrients and food and ditrius allowing the animals to thrive better.

 

[rugie]

Plack, yes water changes will remove no3, however this is a stick your finger in the dike type of remedy, after several hours usually the no3 will be back in full force. if there is an ongoing or upsurge of no3 then quickly locating the problem is mandatory. most times no3 is the outcome of "dirty" areas in the tank or those appliances connected to the water column. ie: bio wheels, bio balls,dirty skimmers, excess detritus on rock, dirty powerheads,etc. some reef tanks produce no3 as a result of excessive amounts of live rock and/or not enough of the sand bed being exposed to water flow, most of the gurus in this hobby are indicating water changes foe no3 as a waste of time and resources. now that is not to say water changes should not be done when there is a no3 danger level. the on going no3 event must be corrected to eliminate the cause and effect that will surly be detrimental to the entire unit. skimming & ozone do not remove just the excess items you mention but will and do remove many,many billions of bacteria along with desirable nutrients,and elements. skimming performs a satisfactory job if only run for a few hours each day preferably in the morning just be for the lights come on and when the Ph is low. removing detritus is highly over rated and overdone it is a food source for many reef inhabitants. it is hard to imagine a reef tank with so much detritus that it needs to be removed on a regular basis. we should remember that one animals excretions are another animals food, after all this is what the benthic flora & fauna thrive on. a few years ago it was thought no food was to be put into a reef tank, no hands and arms or anything that was not sterile, do not breath on the water, do not look downward on the tank as dandruff may fall in, but all of this nonsense is changing ozone belongs in the past there are thousands of reefers running their prize tanks with no skimming or at best only a few hours each week/month. my reef tank gets a few hours of sun each sunny day and a beautiful green haze forms on the glass. towards late afternoon all who can get there, are there, eating the green haze. what they do not get I run over with my magnet cleaner to put the algae into suspension for all the non coral critters. works great!

 

[Krish]

So Rugie, do you run a skimmer at all in your tank? I think I understand what you are saying about aquariums in that "one animals excretions are another animals food" So in otherwards, if I understand what you are saying correctly, pretty much you would say to leave your tank and let it take care of itself just as it is done in the ocean? or am I lost again(LOL) Please excuse me if I am...Just a beginner here trying to learn something If I'm pretty much on track then is it wise to do this in such small systems? I mean the biggest of all aquariums a person keeps, is nothing in comparison to the volume of water and life forms found in the ocean and I think that because of this, this is where we need the extra help of skimmers, good husbandry etc...Just a thought...

 

[rugie]

probiotics

Nikki, the post in reply to you post was getting overly long and I would like to conclude it. when we envision die off of bacteria I think we see them as larger animals. millions of bacteria could fit in the eye of a needle, if a wholesale die off were to occur in a tank it would restabilize in a very short time, (hours) because like I elaborated it is not feasible for all bacteria to die as they are sheltered in jillions of place's substrate, the rock, plants,tank walls the critters etc. it would be a race to see which bacteria becomes dominate, if it appears that the non beneficial were winning it would be just a short time until the beneficial would dominate as the setup would favor their dominance. or some probiotics could be added to the tank so! all that you mention would be of little consequence. and yes we should strive for water quality
as good quality would favor the good guys. slime is a very prized food for bacteria as is detritus as is dying/dead flora/fauna so maintaining good water quality limits the proliferation of bacteria "good & bad" scuse my language.

 

[plack]

Rugie you bring up a different point of view of natural filtration.I know steve tyree tried ecosystems a while back but I know others who have refegiums as well as skimmers.The local club had over a guest who promoted ozone use I believe it was eric borneman and this was only a few months ago. Back to the point adding oxygen is good and helps out in many ways promoting life by its use. And lowering nitrates ammonia and the like promotes life I belive by lowering the food for the primarily bad bacteria as I understand it and this balance of bacteria can change so fast that might be sufficent to help. I think refegiums would also promote life as well even though I don't have one yet.

 

[rugie]

probiotics

Plack, you are correct, a refugium is a promoter of life, that is indeed it's primary function, the function of a fuge is parallel to the salt marsh, it as a norm, fosters beneficial bacteria, making it a probiotic, I am not a ozone fan and neither is our upper atmosphere. you have a keen understanding of probiotics.

 

[rugie]

probiotics

krish75 I employ the use of a skimmer very sparingly.
there is a company that I am trying to check into that produces beneficial bacteria for oil spills,stagnet ponds,run off ponds,sewage treatment facilities & etc. I understand they have developed a bacteria for use in aquariums that may take care of that proteinous film on the water surface and several other strains that will work in the substrate. if possible I will post the info. Tropical science labs inc. are into probiotics, they make several good bacteria products for fresh and saltwater, using names like liquid gravel vac, marine clean, nitromax etc. reef tanks differ greatly from freshwater. in fresh, one could use a syphon type gravel cleaner (altho not recommended for heavily planted tanks) and return a tank to near post cycle condition. in reef tanks we can/should not do this as we would be dumping our beneficial bios, flora/fauna and our tanks would suffer. some of the problems we create is with sand bed depth, if a tank is to have a plenum than the bed should be six inches deep, otherwise one half inch. to not more than two inches would be ideal. any thing deviating from these thicknesses can cause problems with no3 reduction and as a sink for po4. reef substrates should not be disturbed. sand sifting starfish rape the sand bed of bacteria, flora/fauna. many reefers do not use the correct substrate material, crushed shell is not good at all, crushed coral follows that (but all of that is another story.)

 

[rugie]

OOPS! must be getting old.

 

[Krish]

OOPS! must be getting old.

ROFLMAO! I thought you must have had a spasm or something and couldn't stop pressing "Post reply"(LOL) Thanks for the info...Very cool. I read it 3 times(LOL)

 

[rugie]

probiotics

I am a one finger typist and I think it is getting numb,
for those interested here is a link to a company that I mentioned that deals almost exclusively in probiotics. they design specific bacteria for specific applications. there is a section for aquaria, also go to the bottom of the page to learn how probiotics are engineered to meet all of the various challenges. I think you will be amazed at what bacteria are capable of doing. the probiotics here are not hit or miss, target wise but do the job assigned them, how well they perform is again dependent on many variables as is dealing with any life form. I hope this probiotic site will help you understand and become aware of the future of bio life and it's potential benefits for mankind.
Http://www.alken-murray.com/1002pib.htm