I will not comment on the products of Marc Weiss, this man has great in site, he is using probiotics and catalysts to his full advantage, he has a web site where he explains a lot but not enough to really help aquarists trust and understand probiotics. it is one of those take my word for it thingies are probiotics available in the products? only Marc knows!
Probiotics, What?
- Thread starter rugie
- Start date
Help Support Reef Aquarium & Tank Building Forum:
- Status
Still having a hard time wrapping my arms around this one Rugie? I cant see how good and bad get distinguished in a reef tank? and I dont understand how one can conclude that the addition of a "good bacteria" would have any effect on a "Bad Bacteria"? I think it would be easier to assume that the good would probibly just replace simular good bacteria as they are simular in type and requirements?
Even with the bacteria discribed by the link you put up, "Bacillus" has over 900 strains, some are good oxidizers and some are anthrax?
When new bacteria of any type are added to a tank they skew the population and will cause a die of as their food source is exhausted (fairly short order" 9 times out of 10 alge is the first to respond to this effect, I see that whole process as just keeping your reef in a constant state of bacterial flux, just higher then normal.
For me this just points back to an over dependance on a bacterial ecosystem. Folks create an enviroment that is totally skewed for the inhabitation of bacteria, protozoan, enymes and so on (good, bad, indifferent) and because of its ineffeciency (to much needed to be effective alone) are constantly scrambling to make it work.
Not trying to be to negative, but I dont see the benefit any more then what folks get when they dose other bacteria (zeovit) or dose vodka or other simular methods?
help me out here?
Mike
Even with the bacteria discribed by the link you put up, "Bacillus" has over 900 strains, some are good oxidizers and some are anthrax?
When new bacteria of any type are added to a tank they skew the population and will cause a die of as their food source is exhausted (fairly short order" 9 times out of 10 alge is the first to respond to this effect, I see that whole process as just keeping your reef in a constant state of bacterial flux, just higher then normal. For me this just points back to an over dependance on a bacterial ecosystem. Folks create an enviroment that is totally skewed for the inhabitation of bacteria, protozoan, enymes and so on (good, bad, indifferent) and because of its ineffeciency (to much needed to be effective alone) are constantly scrambling to make it work.
Not trying to be to negative, but I dont see the benefit any more then what folks get when they dose other bacteria (zeovit) or dose vodka or other simular methods?
help me out here?
Mike
Mike, The good and bad are distinguished by their purpose and their ability to complete that purpose. our bodies are hosts to many types and thousands of bacteria,there are bacteria that give us bad breath and others that keep our mouths fresh. (depends mostly on the amount of air in our mouths to proliferate specific strain(s) of bacteria. a antibiotic uses 2 options it is strain specific or non strain specific(meaning non discriminating in it's ability to destroy any and all bacteria)( except for those that have mutated to ward off the effectiveness of the anti) most known beneficial do not mutate,and they are not usually successful in becoming resistant to the effects of an antibiotic. I am going to continue to use the terms "good/bad" as it is easier to type. I do not agree that aquaria are in a constant state of bacterial flux all bacteria exhibit a certain amount of opertunisticism. but the bad are designed to be that way on a regular basis. not only do ecosystems contain bacteria but also contain flora, catalysts, and enzymes, most of these will only support a relationship with certain bacteria.probiotics have been active for eons, they are what keeps the world from turning into a cesspool, the lick your wounds is a probiotic event as saliva contains good bacteria and one of their functions is to cleanse a wound when licked the wound would be septic the saliva along with it's linked enzyme would be antiseptic. an over dependence on a bacterial ecosystem dependence on such a system is not over dependence those who advocate probiotics are crying out about the over dependence of mechanical systems. UVA, OZONE injection, HARD SKIMMING, CA INJECTION,
PO4 REMOVERS, an over abundance of chemicals to remove ammonia, nitrite, nitrate to buffer, to maintain Ph,
to remove cloudy and smelly water and on and on are also accompished by select probiotics, will they work as fast? not usually but if they are maintained in aquaria on a consistent basis then chances are excellent that the need for the mechanicals/ additives will not be needed. we all know that there are vicious bacteria looming over all lifeforms. flesh eating bacteria, vi bro, west Nile, pneumonia,
mad cow and far to many to list. there are specialized bacteria that ingest oil from oil spills, that digest sludge in waste treatment plants, etc. without specialized bacteria this would be a sad place to live. how would we reduce to a harmless state many of the gross contaminates that abound. along the gulf coast there are astounding amounts of life forms moving in on the land and water to devour the unmeasurable amounts of pollution. when and if it is gone someday the lifeforms will decrease in numbers, but they will not become extinct because there will always be a food source.
PO4 REMOVERS, an over abundance of chemicals to remove ammonia, nitrite, nitrate to buffer, to maintain Ph,
to remove cloudy and smelly water and on and on are also accompished by select probiotics, will they work as fast? not usually but if they are maintained in aquaria on a consistent basis then chances are excellent that the need for the mechanicals/ additives will not be needed. we all know that there are vicious bacteria looming over all lifeforms. flesh eating bacteria, vi bro, west Nile, pneumonia,
mad cow and far to many to list. there are specialized bacteria that ingest oil from oil spills, that digest sludge in waste treatment plants, etc. without specialized bacteria this would be a sad place to live. how would we reduce to a harmless state many of the gross contaminates that abound. along the gulf coast there are astounding amounts of life forms moving in on the land and water to devour the unmeasurable amounts of pollution. when and if it is gone someday the lifeforms will decrease in numbers, but they will not become extinct because there will always be a food source.
probiotics what?
on this huge ball we live on it is not conceivable that a specific bacteria will be rendered extinct. and in that bacteria are microscopic a die off in a tank is not an immediate pollution threat (under normal conditions). if we were to add ten heaters to the tank turned all the way up so as to almost boil the water it probably would kill all life in that tank. but that is redundant. yes the bacteria population in the water would be askew and it would need to be that way. if a bad strain were present to the tune of say 10 billion and was causing significant problems then good bacteria would need to exceed that number (preferably over an extended period of time) as there would be less chance of a biological crash. as the numbers of bad bacteria are reduced so likewise would the numbers of good bacteria simply due to the lack of need.(lower food supply, lower dissolved oxygen, etc) I have yet to see a reef tank that did not contain some sort of biological diversity, ie: live rock, live sand, filter pads, live food, live animals etc. no doubt there are some, some where, I guess they would be similar to the bubble boy story.
on this huge ball we live on it is not conceivable that a specific bacteria will be rendered extinct. and in that bacteria are microscopic a die off in a tank is not an immediate pollution threat (under normal conditions). if we were to add ten heaters to the tank turned all the way up so as to almost boil the water it probably would kill all life in that tank. but that is redundant. yes the bacteria population in the water would be askew and it would need to be that way. if a bad strain were present to the tune of say 10 billion and was causing significant problems then good bacteria would need to exceed that number (preferably over an extended period of time) as there would be less chance of a biological crash. as the numbers of bad bacteria are reduced so likewise would the numbers of good bacteria simply due to the lack of need.(lower food supply, lower dissolved oxygen, etc) I have yet to see a reef tank that did not contain some sort of biological diversity, ie: live rock, live sand, filter pads, live food, live animals etc. no doubt there are some, some where, I guess they would be similar to the bubble boy story.
Last edited:
distinguishing between good and bad bacteria in a tank is recognizable by good = lack of disease, good level of dissolved oxygen, health of the inhabitants, reproduction level, corals opened fully, low level of nuisance algae, lack of odors, macros growing well, lots of coralline, clean appearing rock work, almost non existent slime coatings on glass pumps etc, obvious signs of benthic flora and fauna. a mysid shrimp/gammarus population, (to list a few) VS bad = a reverse of all of the above. Dose Vodka??
Last edited:
NaH2O
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 8,568
Rugie - here is a thread about dosing vodka....kind of short, but I think you'll get the point: Anyone Dose Vodka?
Very interesting topic Rugie!I myself would like to learn more about the working of this probiotic. Two years back I have tried this probiotic bacteria in my prawn farm but seems like there is not much benefit on my yield. However I understand that great benefits could be achieve if used right as the success they are having in the southamerican countries.Here's a link that may help us understand further what this is all about http://www.enviro-comp.com/. I still have a few left here for use in my aquarium but the time that I used it spike up my nitrate instead of pulling it down. It must be the dosing amount as this are the ones with high bacteria counts.The question is how do we measure the quality of this probiotics.How long can they stay in suspension as for the powder form.
Thanks for starting this thread.
Joey
Thanks for starting this thread.
Joey
Thanks for taking the time to post Rugie. Our reef tanks, like in the wild are in a constant state of flux when it comes to alot of things. Bacteria and nutrients are two of the most common. Bacteria populations are based on food source, enviromentals needs to be thier but it is based on the ammount of food available. an example could be a 90 gal reef tank, with a DSB and ref. would have more of a bacterial population then would my 1000 gal. with out the sand and ref. If you drop food into your tank you are feeding the bacterial population, it fluxes its pop. to meet the food source available, when the food is exhausted the pop. will now flux back down to the food available. This creates a constant state of flux that no one (no matter what filtraion is used) can avoid. Anyway that is the story behind my statement.
Bacteria serve many purposes and most all bacteria have multiple strategies for reducing or oxidizing nutrient or simular. So its not just a case of bad to bad things and good just do good things. Bacteria is one of the most important critters on the planet, with out it, everything dies. But in saying that bacteria nitch critters, each bacterial strain finds its nitch (food and enviroment) and serves its purpose. Lets look at some of the examples you used. Bacteria cleaning up oil spills?, well they are the same as the bacteria that bind up and fix heavy metals. Well that bacteria is called SRB's or sulfide reducing bacteria. Now in our tanks, bacteria that generates sufide is not what one would call a good thing, but are they?? ANother would be a peie of food lands on a coral, they food is engulfed with bacteria trying to reduce it, the flesh of the coral under the food beging to degrade because of the loos of light and oxygen, the bacteria continues past the food and begins to reduce the coral flesh. Is that good, bad or just a lack of maintence? The bacteria is a good one, but it will still enfect and possibly kill your coral?
In my tank I have populations of nitrifing bacteria, denitrifing bacteria, sulfur reducing baceria, probibly methagens, metal reducers and along with a host of other types. They are their because thier is a food source and thier is an enviroment conducive to their growth. All thier populations are based on food and enviroment. How would the introduction of a specific species of good bacteria (lets say denitrifiers, every body loves them) going to do anything but create an inbalance in that population that can not be supported a food source??? it will simply reduce the available food quicker, then die off because of the lack of food and then release its bound up nutrients back into the tank. Which more then likely will be taken up by algae. Even in the case of the bacteria that oxidizes oil spills they have to add large amounts of N and P to feed the bacteria so that it will reduce the oil.
On the use of UV, it is a dissinfectant and it will remove the mass majority good, bad or indifferent bacteria, protozoan and so forth that pass through it, Most preditory bacteria, protozoans and so on live in the water column (where as prey stays in the hidden areas) so it is very effective. Ozone and skimmers are a great way to reduce, oxidize and/or remove nutrients and thier associated bacterias, protozoans from our tank, they dont crash, they dont die off or bloom, we control them instead of the biochemcial filtration (mother nature) controling us.
Let me know where I am going wrong here??
Mike
Bacteria serve many purposes and most all bacteria have multiple strategies for reducing or oxidizing nutrient or simular. So its not just a case of bad to bad things and good just do good things. Bacteria is one of the most important critters on the planet, with out it, everything dies. But in saying that bacteria nitch critters, each bacterial strain finds its nitch (food and enviroment) and serves its purpose. Lets look at some of the examples you used. Bacteria cleaning up oil spills?, well they are the same as the bacteria that bind up and fix heavy metals. Well that bacteria is called SRB's or sulfide reducing bacteria. Now in our tanks, bacteria that generates sufide is not what one would call a good thing, but are they?? ANother would be a peie of food lands on a coral, they food is engulfed with bacteria trying to reduce it, the flesh of the coral under the food beging to degrade because of the loos of light and oxygen, the bacteria continues past the food and begins to reduce the coral flesh. Is that good, bad or just a lack of maintence? The bacteria is a good one, but it will still enfect and possibly kill your coral?
In my tank I have populations of nitrifing bacteria, denitrifing bacteria, sulfur reducing baceria, probibly methagens, metal reducers and along with a host of other types. They are their because thier is a food source and thier is an enviroment conducive to their growth. All thier populations are based on food and enviroment. How would the introduction of a specific species of good bacteria (lets say denitrifiers, every body loves them) going to do anything but create an inbalance in that population that can not be supported a food source??? it will simply reduce the available food quicker, then die off because of the lack of food and then release its bound up nutrients back into the tank. Which more then likely will be taken up by algae. Even in the case of the bacteria that oxidizes oil spills they have to add large amounts of N and P to feed the bacteria so that it will reduce the oil.
On the use of UV, it is a dissinfectant and it will remove the mass majority good, bad or indifferent bacteria, protozoan and so forth that pass through it, Most preditory bacteria, protozoans and so on live in the water column (where as prey stays in the hidden areas) so it is very effective. Ozone and skimmers are a great way to reduce, oxidize and/or remove nutrients and thier associated bacterias, protozoans from our tank, they dont crash, they dont die off or bloom, we control them instead of the biochemcial filtration (mother nature) controling us.
Let me know where I am going wrong here??
Mike
Mike, you say in your post "I see that whole process as just keeping your reef in a constant state of bacterial flux, *I agree with you 100% that statement is factual* Then you state "just higher than normal" *I do not agree!* it really is not known what is normal. I see it as beneficial bacteria present in sufficient numbers to meet the challange.altho the numbers will in most cases require a length of time in the correct environment to reach that sufficient number. ( or the addition of the bacteria would need to be in the amount of 1 tablespoon of pure bacteria to meet that number immediately) but this would not be necessary, given the speed of reproduction by bacteria. "the fastest multiplying life form known". Your paragraph concerning over dependence puzzles me, you seem almost angry at the concept, if this was an over dependence what would be wrong with that? with out this dependence we (to some degree) would then need to be overly dependent on mechanical means. your last paragraph indicates "dosing other bacteria" (zeovit) *that is practicing the use of probiotics and is the crux of the matter.* it should again be noted that providing favorable conditions in an aquarium can and do proliferate the ongoing presence of the probiotics. these favorable conditions include in part, AGAIN! good level of dissolved oxygen, water clarity,correct parameters, ie: ca, alk, iodide, etc. lighting with proper spectrum and duration and intensity, bio load, free access to detritus to avoid it's accumulation, prudent use of food stuffs, and additives, temp, protecting the bio film on all interior surfaces and etc. the systematic dosing of specific bacteria is mandatory for a competent probiotic effect, all bacteria are in flux, their numbers change minute to minute and are governed by the above examples. when these criteria are not met then the bacteria become askew and that is when all the problems start, disease, nuisance algae,bacteria blooms, odors, yellow water, slime die back of flora/fauna,
slowing of reproduction in the higher animals and their decline in health, etc
slowing of reproduction in the higher animals and their decline in health, etc
interesting thread everybody....
I think this is the exact point mojo is trying to get at here. Bacterial based reduction systems are by their dynamic nature inherintley unstable and unpredictable, becasue there are SO many different factors that can affect their performance, both positive and negative. Some of these factors can be controlled to a degree by the reefkeeper, but IMO many can not be. Mechanical reduction, on the other hand, is an arena where the reefkeeper has a lot more direct control, it's not nearly as dynamic and random...and IMO most closely duplicates the environment of the natural reef if you really look at the big picture...
Is this to say one should abandon biological methods? IMO absolutely not...I had a DSB for 5 years, and my tank upgrade will have a plenum. I also think that any biologically driven reduction system in a tank should compliment the tank as a whole, but not necessiarly be the entire basis of the system, ie they all have a role...biological, mechanical, ect....
MikeS
mojoreef said:
rugie said:
I think this is the exact point mojo is trying to get at here. Bacterial based reduction systems are by their dynamic nature inherintley unstable and unpredictable, becasue there are SO many different factors that can affect their performance, both positive and negative. Some of these factors can be controlled to a degree by the reefkeeper, but IMO many can not be. Mechanical reduction, on the other hand, is an arena where the reefkeeper has a lot more direct control, it's not nearly as dynamic and random...and IMO most closely duplicates the environment of the natural reef if you really look at the big picture...
Is this to say one should abandon biological methods? IMO absolutely not...I had a DSB for 5 years, and my tank upgrade will have a plenum. I also think that any biologically driven reduction system in a tank should compliment the tank as a whole, but not necessiarly be the entire basis of the system, ie they all have a role...biological, mechanical, ect....
MikeS
joey, as for the no3 spike, what were you measuring, when the test kit is used it can (with different equations) measure no3 or total nitrogen if you get a reading from total nitrogen it is not an accurate reading of the no3. sometimes probiotics are supported in their container by a food source (usually nitrate) this spike then would be consumed very quickly by the bacteria once added to the water to be treated.measuring the quality of the probiotics would be difficult for us laypeople, the way I evaluate their performance is if and when I see a difference in the undesirable condition that I want to decrease or remove. my one problem with probiotics is that they are slow even tho they multiply quickly. the prepared for use bacteria have various viability durations, depending on how they are preserved, what food scource is packed with them, the ambients surrounding their package, (temp etc) and if indeed they are packed in the dormant state. most strains of benifical bacteria are not free roaming in a water column but take up residence on biofilms. the powder form are dormant, and certain conditions must be provided to break that dormancy. some strains sutible for saltwater use must first be mixed with fresh water then applied to the salt water, if applied directly to salt they will be destroyed.
mikeS, great analogy and I agree with it, reflecting on mike's input he indicates a complete ( or near complete) raping of the tank by the mechanical apparatus. that is like throwing away the baby with the bath water. I agree that both can work together but I am not certain it would be parallel, how do we know when to pull back on the mechanicals. I am not in agreement with the amount of control a reef keeper has over the mechanical reduction. comparison of a closed system with the open ocean is, I think, not an acceptable comparison
mojoreef you indicated several times that the die off of the overabundant bacteria would be putting the nutrient(s) that they consumed back it to the water, this is not realistic, even tho they would be present in the millions their microscopic bodies do not contain the nutrients. "they are converters", when they begin a die off, the other bacteria utilize these dead as food, converting them to some other form that is then further reduced by still other
bacteria or benthic lifeforms
bacteria or benthic lifeforms
rugie said:
But in reality, this is what most closely duplicates conditions you see in the wild reef. Your statement about comparing our little closed tanks to the wild reef as unacceptable is 100% dead on...they have virtually nothing in common. The bioload in even the most minimaly stocked reef is much, much greater than what you see in the wild. The sheer volume of water vs. biolad on the wild reef is gigantic compared to our litte glass boxes...
So what does this mean? In the wild reef what nutrients that do remain are very quickly used up by the flora and fauna on the reef, and are not problematic, like they are in the reef tank, on the contrary, they are desireable.In the reef tank, we are dealing with an excess of nutrients on a constant basis. And as we all know, there are many ways to deal with them. Look at the extent most reefkeepers go to keep these out of the tank in the first place...we use RO/DI water, we don't overfeed, we try not to have too much bioload, ect...ect...and we still always have that pesky excess nutrient problem to deal with. This is where my line of thinking comes in....deal with the nutrients as much as possible before they become a problem. Realistically, what is the best way to do this? Mechanically....the more you remove from the tank before it has a chance to be dealt with biologically, the better off you are IMO. And I'll still maintain that this method most closely resembles they dynamics of what happens on the wild reef in nature.
MikeS
probiotics, what
MIkeS, well spoken! I conquer. I have a problem with all of the mechanicals in use on most reef tanks. a huge percentage of reefers are brainwashed by the vendors and mfg of this type equipment and that is a travesty. we are spending hundreds of dollars on mostly junk. I have been doing salt for over twelve years and I sure would love to have the money I wasted, all those products endorsed by those self proclaimed experts/gurus. things were a lot different when I started out. the market now is glutted with every type of apparatus, chemicals, do dads, hickey jiggers useless, poorly constructed junk that is so ill engineered that one can not even clean them correctly. many many reefers think all they need is this or that (or both) and their tanks will be invincible, many overfeed with the wrong types/amounts of food, dump in additives of all kinds, buy, buy, buy, then it all hits the fan and you find them giving up or coming on the forums crying help me, help me. now I am not saying in any sense of the word that we should not offer our help I am just making an example of a possible end result. thru about the first six years of my time in salt most items were cheap. snails 49 cents, yellow tang 6-8 dollars , peppermint shrimp 3.99,
coral $6.00-16.00, air driven skimmer 18.00 new lime wood diffusers 2-$119, 50 gal IO salt 7.49. this hobby really took off. most had no idea what they were doing or how to do it, then came the buy my product and all will be ok people. I have not posted on the forums for many years.
I found some of the new breed of reefers to be arrogant and argumentative, many would post something just to have something to say, not being helpful to anyone. I am not bashing anyone and I encourage all to participate in the posts. I am 70 years old and I think what I am trying to say is we should encourage folks to try to be conservative
and prudent in selecting aids for their aquaria. biologicals have caught on , they will be the new wave, they will cut into the mechanicals. we need to keep reefing simple, to enjoy our hobby and not go broke and loose our spouses over it.we now can barely afford anything for our hobby, I recommend buying from fellow reefers on the salt sites, far better deals and quality available. the next big cost item will be biologicals, they are already fairly expensive. *sorry for the rant*
MIkeS, well spoken! I conquer. I have a problem with all of the mechanicals in use on most reef tanks. a huge percentage of reefers are brainwashed by the vendors and mfg of this type equipment and that is a travesty. we are spending hundreds of dollars on mostly junk. I have been doing salt for over twelve years and I sure would love to have the money I wasted, all those products endorsed by those self proclaimed experts/gurus. things were a lot different when I started out. the market now is glutted with every type of apparatus, chemicals, do dads, hickey jiggers useless, poorly constructed junk that is so ill engineered that one can not even clean them correctly. many many reefers think all they need is this or that (or both) and their tanks will be invincible, many overfeed with the wrong types/amounts of food, dump in additives of all kinds, buy, buy, buy, then it all hits the fan and you find them giving up or coming on the forums crying help me, help me. now I am not saying in any sense of the word that we should not offer our help I am just making an example of a possible end result. thru about the first six years of my time in salt most items were cheap. snails 49 cents, yellow tang 6-8 dollars , peppermint shrimp 3.99,
coral $6.00-16.00, air driven skimmer 18.00 new lime wood diffusers 2-$119, 50 gal IO salt 7.49. this hobby really took off. most had no idea what they were doing or how to do it, then came the buy my product and all will be ok people. I have not posted on the forums for many years.
I found some of the new breed of reefers to be arrogant and argumentative, many would post something just to have something to say, not being helpful to anyone. I am not bashing anyone and I encourage all to participate in the posts. I am 70 years old and I think what I am trying to say is we should encourage folks to try to be conservative
and prudent in selecting aids for their aquaria. biologicals have caught on , they will be the new wave, they will cut into the mechanicals. we need to keep reefing simple, to enjoy our hobby and not go broke and loose our spouses over it.we now can barely afford anything for our hobby, I recommend buying from fellow reefers on the salt sites, far better deals and quality available. the next big cost item will be biologicals, they are already fairly expensive. *sorry for the rant*
Last edited:
Krish
RF STAFF
No man rugie...You guys are doing great. I haven't replied here because you guys are getting a little too deep for me(LOL), but nevertheless, I'll get it. It's a great thread IMO...You guys amaze me with your intelligence onf different subjects here. I'm definately learning a lot here. Keep talking rugie...I still think you have a lot to offer here...
That did it ! now I'm going to get a big head. krish , when you say getting too deep for you that disturbs me. we do not want to get too deep for any body, if we do that what are the benefits of the post. how can we/I lighten it up a bit? (and do not diminish you intelligence by saying it is just you). what time is it there. it is 1:am here. gonna go to bed now.
- Status
