Probiotics, What?

[Krish]

That did it ! now I'm going to get a big head. krish , when you say getting too deep for you that disturbs me we do not want to get too deep for any body, if we do that what are the benefits of the post. how can we?I lighten it up a bit. (and do not diminish you intelligence by saying it is just you). what time is it there. it is 1:am here. gonna go to bed now.

LOL...It's 1:00 am here too. Don't mind me rugie...I hardly come in the advanced topics section as I only consider myself a beginner. Far from being advanced. I, however, never limit myself to what can be learned. So I peek in here, grab a little bit of info and run and go research it. Then I come back and say, "Ahhhh" that's what they are talking about" You guys aren't getting too technical so don't worry. Like I said, the thread is going well, and a lot is being learned. Very smart people here on the forum...Can't get over it sometimes, but then we all have are specialties which distinguishes us from one another and that's what's good about it. We can all come together and share info, and as a result, all be that much smarter and wiser. THANK YOU RF FOR MAKING ME SMARTER AND WISER...I HOPE TO REPAY YOU"LL SOME DAY(LOL) Until then...Goodnight everyone...Great thread

 

[mojoreef]

HIya Rugie, sorry for not being able to do quick replies, work has just been a bear and I dont get alot of free times these days. Let me see if I can answer a few things.

Mike, you say in your post "I see that whole process as just keeping your reef in a constant state of bacterial flux, *I agree with you 100% that statement is factual* Then you state "just higher than normal" *I do not agree!* it really is not known what is normal.

Sure it is Rugie. As I mentioned prior, Bacterial poplations are based on the available food source and enviromentals. Normal condition would be bacterial strains and populations at a level that the tank can support. In your posting you say "I see it as beneficial bacteria present in sufficient numbers to meet the challange" well challenge is Food and enviroment. Now if you tank has challenges all the time then I would say thier is something enherently wrong with your system.

Your paragraph concerning over dependence puzzles me, you seem almost angry at the concept, if this was an over dependence what would be wrong with that? with out this dependence we (to some degree) would then need to be overly dependent on mechanical means.

No anger at all my friend. Here is the crux of what I am trying to say. When setting up a tank we are given choices on how and what to do and how to combat the many challenges. The challenges are mainly the processing or removal of nutirents from our system. These nutrient come in the form of food we feed, waste and detritus in general. From here most folks choice a strategy to deal with them. When one goes biological one is not removing them, one is locking them up in biochemical cycles with small amounts being burned off as energy. The price one pays for this system is that it is very slow, inefficient (as in you will never come close to what you actually need to do the job) along with a host of other issues that result as a secondary condition (end product detritus, limits on bioloads, huge oxygen comsumer, constant fluxes, at the mercy of blooms and die offs). When one chooses a mechanical system, (and one can not have just a mechanical sytem they must also have an ammount of biologicals) the concept is to remove the waste/detritus/end product prior to its reduction/oxidizing. It is simular to how you cut your grass?? do you buy a heard of goats?? or a lawn mower?? Bad analagy maybe but its early, lol.

we need to keep reefing simple, to enjoy our hobby and not go broke and loose our spouses over it.we now can barely afford anything for our hobby, I recommend buying from fellow reefers on the salt sites, far better deals and quality available. the next big cost item will be biologicals, they are already fairly expensive.

Oh you are SO right on this one Rugie!!!!!!!!!! What I am saying is that their is no way a biological system is as simple as a mechanical system. You can not compare billions of living life forms trying to work in harmony in a closed system with out scale to a simple peice of mehanical filtration.
In both worlds (mechanical and biological) thier are extremes. Some of the skimmers and other mechanical peices are rediculas in price for what they are designed to do and I always try to steer folks to a more simple peice. In the biological world it is almost as bad now if not even worse. Folks pay up to 40 bucks an ounce for food, or a buck a pound for common beach sand, big dollars for microscopic pods that last all of minutes in the tank or even a system that requires 6 or 7 forms of additives.

reflecting on mike's input he indicates a complete ( or near complete) raping of the tank by the mechanical apparatus. that is like throwing away the baby with the bath water.

Ouch!! you need to expand on this one for my Rugie.


Mike

 

[MikeS]

MIkeS, well spoken! I conquer. I have a problem with all of the mechanicals in use on most reef tanks. a huge percentage of reefers are brainwashed by the vendors and mfg of this type equipment and that is a travesty. we are spending hundreds of dollars on mostly junk. I have been doing salt for over twelve years and I sure would love to have the money I wasted, all those products endorsed by those self proclaimed experts/gurus. things were a lot different when I started out.

I totally agree with this, there are lots of things out there that are marketed as the magic cure all piece of equipment that will solve all your reef keeping problems. It's the nature of the industry. (AND this isn't restricted to mechanical stuff....there are plenty of foods, additives, bacterial systems and methods, ect that fall into the exact same category... ) The burdon really lies on the reefkeeper, he/she needs to do the research and make good decisions when it comes to equipment, suppliments, food, ect. I totally understand what you are saying...I've been doing marine tanks a long time too...20+years....and yeah, I'd like to have the $$$ back I spent on goofy stuff as well....:lol: Been down that road myself a few times as well my friend...

the market now is glutted with every type of apparatus, chemicals, do dads, hickey jiggers useless, poorly constructed junk that is so ill engineered that one can not even clean them correctly. many many reefers think all they need is this or that (or both) and their tanks will be invincible, many overfeed with the wrong types/amounts of food, dump in additives of all kinds, buy, buy, buy, then it all hits the fan and you find them giving up or coming on the forums crying help me, help me.

Again, the reefkeeper is just as much to blame here...so many dive into the hobby without doing any real research, and force themselves into a fast learning curve:lol: . We are all, however, guilty of jumping on one bandwagon or another from time to time...

I found some of the new breed of reefers to be arrogant and argumentative, many would post something just to have something to say, not being helpful to anyone. I am not bashing anyone and I encourage all to participate in the posts. I am 70 years old and I think what I am trying to say is we should encourage folks to try to be conservative
and prudent in selecting aids for their aquaria.:

I doubt that you will find too many people that will disagree with that statement here...

biologicals have caught on , they will be the new wave, they will cut into the mechanicals. we need to keep reefing simple, to enjoy our hobby and not go broke and loose our spouses over it.we now can barely afford anything for our hobby, I recommend buying from fellow reefers on the salt sites, far better deals and quality available. the next big cost item will be biologicals, they are already fairly expensive. *sorry for the rant*

Hmmm....well....we've all seen bioloical approaches come in and out of favor as well...the wet/dry....the plenum...the DSB...the BB...ect....they all have a good side and a bad side, just like everything else in the hobby. Biological approaches present just as many hazards as mechanical approaches...

There are many mechanical methods that have survived the test of time....skimming, filtering with carbon, high flow...ect....combined with a sound biological apporach, you have a chance at providing your reef with a stable system. But, I will still maintain that the good oldies....skimming, carbon, ect are tried and true, and more controllable by the reefkeeper than biological methods, and if done adequately, will compliment biological approaches...

MikeS

 

[aquariumdebacle]

Gotta jump in on the side of the composters here! I am in the process of setting up a system to maximize the bacterial populations in total. I will not discriminate and will allow the good, bad, and benign to flourish. I wish to make a system that can really hold a bioload, a really big bioload. This may possibly end up being a bacterial cespit but at least I will be able to say "I know what doesn't work!" On the other hand if I am correct and don't lose power for a significant amount of time (a couple hours) I will be able to say I have a relative success in trying to accomplish my goals.

Now as for the bacteria, I believe their is a place for "probiotics" as well as "anti-biotics" and that usually is a commerical production environment. The "snake-oil" that many use or try to sell is used totally inappropriately and comes with general but vague instructions and dosages that mean little to the average hobbyist. Why anybody would pay for bacteria is entirely beyond me and paying for bacteria food is even more riduculus. As stated they are quite abundant in the aquarium, why pay for them? Any product containing bacteria must be a monoculture produced in extremely sterile conditions to be even slightly effective. Beyond this a bacterias lifetime is about 1/3 of an hour to half a day. How are you going to get that live culture to me without killing it? Some bacteria sporalate, some do not. Even if they do what good are spores? I all ready have more than enough to populate my tank by just letting it fester. They lie in wait and as soon as the opportunity arises they come out of there spores and feed on what ever resource they can find until there kids can no longer make a living and the population dies back and a new population takes over until they exhaust there food supply. This goes on and on increasing the total bioload and establishing a new equilibriunm with each input of food. This is common knowledge. What I fail to understand is that when "probiotics" or bacteria or whatever is being added to the system is halted , there seems to be no adverse affects. So if you can be just as successful not adding the expensive additives then what is the sales pitch to get me to cough up my hard earned cash. Yes let's keep it simple and not add more.

I disagree entirely on the protein skimmer. The "scum on the surface" is exactly what a protein skimmer removes. Do to it's very nature a well designed skimmer can never possibly remove too much or in my case even enough to keep up with what I put in! I had my tank set up in a typical composting fashion Deep Deep sand bed (6" but size doesn't matter!) and I over populated and over fed. My pistol shrimp over the period of about a year took care of my overpopulation and over feeding problem and my deep deep sand bed and Aquamedic (Plug for them!) gradually removed all yellowing compounds in about two months. No, additives, no paid for biotics of any kind. I just let nature take its course and when I cut the lighting the algae disappeared! The sand sifting gobies decimated my year-long growth of worms and bugs but they just went deeper into the substrate (or a better explanation is that the ones that were deep did not get eaten!) This had absolutely no effect on the parameters of the water quality. The only thing that actually had an affect was limiting the input.

I moved last summer and had to entirely remove the sandbed to relocate the system. I had the joy of hauling 300lbs. of wet sand (and found out my true friends!) As I pulled the sand from the tank I was expecting the worst. It was absolutely clean! I feces you not! The only cloudiness visible was the dust that was not removed when placed in the tank originally. There was no anaerobic activity of any significance and it did not smell at all! I know the last statement is really hard to believe but the system had the bioload of a single pistol shrimp for several months.

Left to it's own the natural way is by far the best but unless you are like Dr. Eng and can get your friends for free and live by a natural body of water you are stuck like the rest of us trying to take out of our system what we put into it. That is the true equilibrium bacterial and otherwise.

Just to confuse the matter a little more let me reiterate that i do believe that "probiotics", "purchased bacteria", etc., etc. have their place in the hobby: setting up a tank to inoculate (although crud from an existing tank or better yet a protein skimmer cup is equally good, and cheaper by far!) a system, hospital/quarentine tanks for sure, and large scale production facilities with access to large quantities at a cheaper price are a few of the areas that I will not dispute can be benefitted from these type additives.

So, could some of you kindly send me some flames! it's really cold in my apartment and the last ones warmed my heart so!

 

[Skipper J]

skipper j thanx for the link,very helpful!

No problem Rugie!I'm glad this subject came out as I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the pros and cons of probiotics.I just don't have enough time now to digest all the discussion.For sure I monitoring the progress.Thanks again to all who are contributing to the thread.

Joey

 

[rugie]

The point I am making about the bio's becoming the new wave is due to the incredible amount of expensive mechanical junk that is being crammed down our throats by the manufacturers of the items, now there are magnets that you install in line on aquarium flow lines that are claimed to correct all ills, and are being endorsed by "experts?". ozone generators, uva sterilizers, skimmers, etc are selling for many hundreds of dollars, plus the fact that everything has quadrupled in price, I do not see how this can go on with out serious consequences to the hobby.
I have a neighbor whos son works at wendy's to pay for his car and insurance so he is able to work at wendy's.

 

[GreshamH]

I don't know if this is available online, but, there's an article about this in Inernational Aqua Feed. The article is "Proboitics in trout feed confer protection against pathogens and help optomise flesh quality" and is located on page 6 of the July-August addition of this year (volume 8 issue 3).

Interesting article and interesting thread

Sorry I don't have more to add, but I must run to work

 

[rugie]

probiotics, what?

GreshamH, you are correct it is an interesting thread. there are sites after sites on the web that do a great job of explaining probiotics. what has occurred to me is that the thread only indicated the addition of beneficial bacteria to an aquarium. the concept of "probiotic" was touched on but never was really presented in it's true meaning, I guess I was not really paying attention to detail but spent a lot of effort in trying to explain the miss conceptions of some of the posts. your post spurred me into reading the entire thread and sure enough we only had a passing glimpse of what probiotics are and the role they play. there really is not space for an in depth dissection of probiotics here, but the most reverent role they play is to place certain flora/fauna on & into subject lifeforms to guard them from destructive microorganisms. the role they play in aquaria water and on bio films is minute compared to the real potential these bio's offer. they can/are purposefully implanted into higher lifeforms as an inoculation procedure, prepared feeds are used as carriers as well as bio exposure of natural foods so that they become carriers also. probiotics can/are administered also thru inhalents, mists, and absorption thru
the body structure. I think in simple terms it is very much akin to a flu shot. the killed virus is injected into a life form so that the life form can develop and produce antibodies that will seek out and destroy the live virus if and when it attacks the life form. this is preventive use of probiotics and is typical of the purpose of probiotics ( as I indicated in an earlier post). I have brought along a link from a very prestigious entity. the entire article and the several subjects in the left hand side bar menu make for good reading and they are not very hard to comprehend.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=99008

 

[MikeS]

Ok...confused now...:lol:

The link provided had information on using probiotic agents as a precautionary measure against disease in fishes primarily....is this what you are advocating here rugie as the primary advantage?

MikeS

 

[charlyclown]

Well, probiotics are in contrast to inactivated vaccines very much alive. Although there is an active flu shot available, it's only indicated for the less than 50 year old and healthy individuals. I suspect that people who would consider adding probiotics to their tanks likely have already problems going on with their livestock (why else would you consider adding it anyways). And, if they have sick or somewhat immunocompromised fish/corals/inverts in their tanks, there is a whole new Pandora’s box what you will open. Adding that new bacteria to your tank would shift the balance of microorganisms in your tanks and put the lifestock even more under stress. You likely going to have more problems than before the treatment.
Probiotics are indicated for people who are on antibiotics or similar drugs, because antibiotics kill or inhibit growth of bacteria in our gut and change the gut flora equilibrium (hence your side effect diarrhea).
In industrial fish production a lot of antibiotics are used probably permanently to prevent disease, hence probiotics is a wise thing to add to maintain the gut flora of the treated fish.

And, people run reef aquariums successfully for a long time now, why add it anyways? If you are doing proper husbandry and quarantine new livestock, and don’t overstock your tank, you are not likely to have much problems with disease. And, BTW, maintaining clean water in your tank and feeding the right foods to your fish should keep diseases at bay.
Maybe in 10 years we’ll have monoclonal antibodies or even gene therapies available for our reef inhabitants, but who will pay for things like that? I know a lot of people whom I sold antidepressants and antipsychotics to their cats and dogs and spend hundred+ bucks a month, now that’s good business for me.

 

[charlyclown]

Hey wound-licking rugie,

I hope you don't really do that. Human saliva is one of the nastiest fluids on this planet. If that's probiotic, than I'm going to have skimmer gung for diner!
After all, you have to use a quite potent antibiotics to treat human bite wounds. Much harder to treat than animal wounds. And we’ve got all kinds of bacteria in our mouth, some of the nastiest is in there. And it better be there! There is no good or bad in bacteria. As long as it’s not pathogenic, it’s good. Always!

 

[rugie]

probiotics, what?

MikeS, No that is not what I am advocating (entirely) what I am trying to demonstrate is that probiotics are not just limited to providing a beneficial bacteria to the tank water in hopes that it performs the specific job that we want it to do. (as the thread seems to illustrate). I have "some" info on probiotics in my computer that I use over time when I find the need. on occasion I add to the folder, that which seems to hold informative info. & as I stated there is not space for long articles "as posts" so I was hoping for input that would prove/disprove the subject, that is occurring somewhat but not enough to support the theory. as I stated, "PROBIOTIC" means that which promotes life. used for disease control, as a booster for the immune response system, "it can be" in part, are non-pathogenic gram positive bacillus, specialized facultative anaerobes that oxidize. ETC. I have made many references on this thread that could act as primers for debate/conversation to add to or subtract from the whole subject of probotics. probiotics run a gamet of applications of specific flora/bacteria for a specific use. they can be complex, they can be compounded, to better carry out their task, they can/are used as probiotic enemas to increase flora into the gut of many lifeforms (there by not needing to go thru the stomach acid first) there is also a tag along bacteria that will protect the flora from the hostile environment in the gut and usually it is (Like Ragu) in there. I am going to respond to charlyclown perhaps I can lift some of the confusion further.

 

[rugie]

probiotics, what?

charlyclown, I am not wound licking rugie, please exercise manners. you hope I don't do what? lick a wound? did I ever indicate that I or any human would lick a wound? human saliva contains probiotic bacteria/flora, designed to perform certain tasks, such as; to remove decay causing bacteria etc, how did we get on the subject of humans biting someone? would you like to start a new thread on that subject? there are good/bad bacteria. yes the pathogens make them bad, non pathogenic bacteria are good. hence good/bad bacteria. it does not matter what made them bad. many, many aquarist's use probiotics to upgrade the immune systems of the tank inhabitants. to reduce thru the process of oxidation the detritus accumulation, to provide an obstacle to pathogens that may come in on new animals ,live rock,etc this is where probiotics work their best, as a front line defense system. this in part is "why else would you consider adding it anyways" shifting the balance of microorganisms in a tank already compromised by non beneficial bacteria to beneficial bacteria would logically be in their best interest as they are not well with what they have now "right?" I stated in this thread prior bacteria go about their activities methodically, only reproducing as the need arises. it is not logical to add probiotics with out providing them life support so that they can do their job. an aquarium that is compromised by disease will usually have a substandard life support system, ie; low dissolved oxygen. high ammonia, nitrite/nitrate etc so the Pandora's box is not a viable example. probiotics are not just for people, the concept of probiotics have been around since the start of life on earth and only recently have been used for the benefit of humans. your last paragraph concerning husbandry is not realistic, on a comparative basis there are probably about one third of aquarists that "reef" as you outline. most are new to the hobby, do not have much money, take advice from the LFS, etc, the forums are an indication of the reefers abilities and knowledge, not conclusive, but an indication. I would venture to say with your criteria for the perfect tank as you outline in your last paragraph that you can be of unsurpassed help to all us reefers, but alas the picture you paint does not exist in reality for the average aquarist.

 

[Maxx]

Rugie,
I think he was referring to your post:

the lick your wounds is a probiotic event as saliva contains good bacteria and one of their functions is to cleanse a wound when licked the wound would be septic the saliva along with it's linked enzyme would be antiseptic.

Post # 23

Nick

 

[rugie]

Well I guess with a vivid imagination one could construe that as a human licking their wound. and as an aside there would not ( outside of the repulsiveness of it) be any thing wrong with a person licking ones own wound. it seem logical that you or someone you have seen cut or injure their finger and stick it in their mouth. I know I have. the Komodo dragon has a very deadly saliva that is saturated with a specialized bacteria. after biting their prey within hours the prey animal succumbs to the deadly bacteria.
even an animal as large as a deer they are immune to the saliva bacteria from each others mouths. I would say this is the worst saliva & (not that of a humans saliva) I have also seen many human bites on other humans, ie; very young children biting family, siblings, friends, themselves. I bite my lip all the time and sometimes my tongue. at 70 yrs of age I am not aware of any deaths or mutilations from human bites Nasties? hmm!

 

[rugie]

I will concede tho that a human bite that breaks the skin should receive a tetanus shot.

 

[charlyclown]

I think this thread is going nowhere.
My paragraph about husbandry IS realistic. See, if people screw up their tanks because of lack of husbandry, they are not likely to stick with this hobby.
That's in a way a natural selection thingy and that's good so.
That said, I think a lot of people on this forum learn to do things better. Many reefers on this forum are very knowledgeable and have plenty of experience. Just look around the posts here.
And no, there is no perfect tank, as there are no 'perfect' magic bullet bacteria, as you try to advocate here. Seems like you advocate these probiotics, but as soon as someone tries to become more specific, your opinion becomes somehow fuzzy. Also, bacteria don't multiply 'methodically' but they do interact with each other and are opportunistic.
As about wound licking, read this:
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/human_bite_infections.jsp
As you can read, you should not put your hand in your mouth, well, if you put your finger in your mouth, you can as well place your saliva in your aquarium for probiotic benefit.
As about probiotics, I would not be comfortable to intentionally invade my small ecosystem reef with a bacteria mix that may have questionable outcomes. This hobby is expensive enough.

 

[aquariumdebacle]

Would you mind sharing some of the relevant information that you have accumulated on your hard drive? The problem from my perspective is that there is not enough explicit information (espescially on the bottles) for me to understand just exactly what I am to put into my aquarium and what dosages are going to be effective and more importantly what dosages are not going to be effective. I would also be interested in side effects and how they may affect the animals that I am subjecting these products to. It is not enough for you to say they will be better, or you won't need expensive equipment, tell me how and why explicitly. Don't be afraid to "take up too much space" I am sure that the servers can handle it. I understand how the expensive equipment works on the molecular level, I do not understand how "probiotics" work on the molecular level or even what they really are even after this lengthy discussion and reading the bottles. I need to know more than "it promotes life" in need to know why.

 

[Krish]

I honestly think it's a shame:doubt: ...IMO this thread seems to have flatlined----------It was such an interesting topic for discussion and learning, but now it seems to have become more of a topic of debate about who is right and wrong. It is truely upsetting when a "great" thread comes to this...


...I wish we all could get along here

 

[wave98]

Some of the problems we create are with sand bed depth. If a tank is to have a plenum, then the bed should be six inches deep, otherwise one half inch to not more than two inches would be ideal. Any thing deviating from these thicknesses can cause problems with no3 reduction and as a sink for po4. Reef substrates should not be disturbed. sand sifting starfish rape the sand bed of bacteria, flora/fauna. many reefers do not use the correct substrate material, crushed shell is not good at all, crushed coral follows that (but all of that is another story.)

Rugie, could you expound on the bed depths that you offered. Nearly all sandbed proponents "specify" or reccomend bed depths of less than 1 1/2", or, 4" minimum up to infinity, as the correct depth, which leaves the 1 1/2" - 4" territory as "dangerous".

I can't say that I've learned enough yet to agree with this exactly, and particle size is supposed to be another important factor that might effect depth. It sounds like you have taken to heart, the information offered by "Goemans and Gamble", but the information from DSB proponents "dwarfs" their publication and "research" by a factor of hundreds.

I am just trying to learn and the depth values don't seem else wise to "stack-up".

This may be getting a tad off topic, but since the thread is veering slightly toward mechanical VS "natural" ( biological ) I thought I'd look for some clarification here.

Thanks, and Happy Reef Keeping. > Wave98

Sorry folks, I had only read page 1 when I posted, not having noticed page 2. As to the "flatlining", there is no need to become "horn-locked" on the "differences" here, I hope that we can relax, and enjoy some further discussion. I have to echo Dan's request for better supportive information on the pro's and how-to's of using the products. The first link seemed to give enough information to get people to buy, but fell short of any meaningful explanation of the specific activities that are occuring while using the product.

Still wouldn't mind clarification of the bed depth question Rugie. I'm quite neutral on this for now, and I hope it does not sound otherwise. Let's help Krish feel a little better and try to get along. He's a bit sensitive I think from all that salt smell out his back door. :lol: