Probiotics, What?
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rugie said:
My apologies Rugie, perhaps that wasn't the best way to put it...I was simply attempting to get a bit of clarification on what you had in mind for your own tank concerning probiotics....again, my apologies that it came out that way, I'll edit that out of my post
MikeS
wave98
Pearly
Quite true, and I agree, but how about if the mechanical and bioligical methods compilment "each other", and become a whole system VS one being dominant over the other?MikeS said:There are many mechanical methods that have survived the test of time....skimming, filtering with carbon, high flow...ect....combined with a sound biological apporach, you have a chance at providing your reef with a stable system. But, I will still maintain that the good oldies....skimming, carbon, ect are tried and true, and more controllable by the reefkeeper than biological methods, and if done adequately, will compliment biological approaches...
MikeS
> Wave98
Maxx
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rugie said:
rugie said:A few days ago on posting in a thread I used the term probiotics. and as usual I stuck my foot in my mouth, I was not aware that probiotics was such a vague subject and took it for granted that everyone knew and understood probiotics........
.....if we want to remember the role of proboitics and what they are, it is simply, a known beneficial bacteria put into use with a purpose. if you would care to add to this thread or want to discuss it in more detail feel free to post and we will kick it around a while.
Rugie, I thought this thread was started in an effort to educate and explain the purpose behind pro-biotics and why we as home aquarists should use them in our reef tanks. To that end, you need to give examples of what youre promoting, and give compelling evidence or information to support your position. In this entire thread, there have been only been two links to articles written by someone other than a manufacturer. Propaganda by manufacturers doesnt provide enough data to sway me to do something different than I'm already doing.
This article:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=99008 goes rather in depth and gives compelling information regarding using bacteria to treat or reduce pathogen outbreaks in aquaculture but doesnt explain how/where the home hobbyist can aquire the specific strains of bacteria that were used in the testing.
This article provided by Charlyclown:
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/e_borneman_051098.html
Also does a fair job at explaining bacteria's role in the home aquarium, but again is lacking information on culturing specific bacterial strains, availability, etc...
So we're left with the idea that bacteria can be helpful in the marine aquarium, but no real comparison between products alledged by manufacturers to be pro-biotic. You even state that you dont endorse any products because you arent sure of what they contain.
So where does that leave us? We should be adding probiotics, (according to your asertations in this thread), but you dont reccomend anything specific?
What products made by Tropical Science do you use and why? What positive benefits do you notice when using these proucts? What negative aspects do you notice when you stop using these products?
This is not a "jump in -post- jump out"
meaningless jabs just to have something to say posts that do not contribute any thing to the thread.
This is an sincere attempt at learning more about what you are advocating.
In order to be a meaningful worthwhile discussion, there needs to be give and take, information exchange and clarification/answering of questions asked. Keep in mind you are going have your ideas questioned and examined...I dont add anything blindly to my tank, too many horror stories about the consequences and imbalances resulting from impulse decisions.
So try to relax and not be so sensitive. Its not an attack on you, its a quest for information.
charlyclown
Active member
I totally agree with you Maxx.
Although I might be a bit off the topic, I thought it would be maybe
helpful to present the success and problems of probiotics in human.
There is substantial research here, and I consider myself to be an expert
in human application of probiotics.
I have been working in a clinical environment and recommended/used
lactobacillus, which is the prototype probiotic uses in human.
It’s beneficial for various disease states: It’s likely effective for rotaviral diarrhea.
It’s probably effective for other disease states like antibiotic-associated diarrhea,
eczema, diarrhea, respiratory infections in children (prophylaxis) and traveler’s
diarrhea. Usually it’s administered in combination w/antibiotics, since antibiotics
alter the normal flora and allow colonization of opportunistic pathogenic organisms.
In severely ill patients and immunocompromised patients, lactobacillus has been reported
to cause lactobacillus bacteremia. However, in relatively healthy individuals, no pathogenic colonization occurred to my knowledge. Some mildly immunocompromised patients took L. without problems, however, I usually want to make sure they know the risks involved with impurities commonly present in at least 1/3 of the products on the market: some products don’t even contain life Lactobacillus acidophilus, others contain other strains of Lactobacillus, such as Lactobacillus bulgaricus. Contamination with other bacterial strains is unfortunately rather common: E. faecium, Clostridium sporogenes, and various Pseudomonas have been reported.
I’ve had a lady who took a product and almost died after breast cancer. Since then, I became a bit more careful with these products and recommend in healthy patients simply cultured yoghurt, since there have been studies which found no clinically significant differences to the expensive L.
The information given here is based on research articles and on my clinical experience. If anyone wants to know where the data comes from, I can provide you with the Journal references. Hope I did not bore anybody to death.
Although I might be a bit off the topic, I thought it would be maybe
helpful to present the success and problems of probiotics in human.
There is substantial research here, and I consider myself to be an expert
in human application of probiotics.
I have been working in a clinical environment and recommended/used
lactobacillus, which is the prototype probiotic uses in human.
It’s beneficial for various disease states: It’s likely effective for rotaviral diarrhea.
It’s probably effective for other disease states like antibiotic-associated diarrhea,
eczema, diarrhea, respiratory infections in children (prophylaxis) and traveler’s
diarrhea. Usually it’s administered in combination w/antibiotics, since antibiotics
alter the normal flora and allow colonization of opportunistic pathogenic organisms.
In severely ill patients and immunocompromised patients, lactobacillus has been reported
to cause lactobacillus bacteremia. However, in relatively healthy individuals, no pathogenic colonization occurred to my knowledge. Some mildly immunocompromised patients took L. without problems, however, I usually want to make sure they know the risks involved with impurities commonly present in at least 1/3 of the products on the market: some products don’t even contain life Lactobacillus acidophilus, others contain other strains of Lactobacillus, such as Lactobacillus bulgaricus. Contamination with other bacterial strains is unfortunately rather common: E. faecium, Clostridium sporogenes, and various Pseudomonas have been reported.
I’ve had a lady who took a product and almost died after breast cancer. Since then, I became a bit more careful with these products and recommend in healthy patients simply cultured yoghurt, since there have been studies which found no clinically significant differences to the expensive L.
The information given here is based on research articles and on my clinical experience. If anyone wants to know where the data comes from, I can provide you with the Journal references. Hope I did not bore anybody to death.
wave98
Pearly
rugie said:
Geeze rugie, It would be nice if we could get on with a discussion here, and I for one, am behind you on this one, at least as far as bringing the information into the light, but gosh PEOPLE, can't we relax here a little bit, and discuss the material at hand without "chucking spears" all over the place? ! ! ! !
Gosh Krish, can't you come in here and "save us all"?
Some people don't seem to have much function in these forums other than causing trouble, and I am not addressing this to anyone who has posted on this thread, but "come on" folks, can't we be nice, at least until new years? :lol: :lol:
> Wave98
ooPS, I really have to agree with MAXX here, let's bring in some "good" information on this. I haven't seen anything yet that explains why I would be convinced, and start dosing any of these probiotics into my tank. I need to know more before that could happen.
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probiotics, what/
charlyclowns article is a substantial addition to the thread
I do not have the capabilities to fulfill your requests MAXX. the reason being is that I do not have the answers you seek, and the reason for that is due to the recent trend towards probiotics. as I eluded to prior there most likely is a wealth of scams and deceptions involved with these probiotic products. those mfg'rs will list bacteria, enzymes, catalysts, etc but will not list the strain of the bacteria etc ( except for the common nitrifiers) they claim they are trade secrets. probiotics for human use are regulated by law, and must be listed, not so for non food animals. animals for human consumption are strictly regulated.ie; food fish,shellfish. I posted a tropical science website, what is explained there is what I know also. the home site for tropical science does not give much more info. I have not made probiotics my life ambition it is enough for me to know there may exist an alternitive to the expensive radical mechanicals. I believe that when a reference is made to a method, product, new thinking, new resources etc it has done it's job as far as giving a heads up to the public in general. once a person becomes interested in the above then it is up to that person to do the research that will satisfy their needs or their quest for knowledge. I am aware of probiotics, if and when I would have a problem in my aquaria I would first investigate to determine as best I could what the problem is and what is perpetuating it and very likely I would turn to probiotics for a remedy. I do not know what it would take to get me to strap on a uva sterilizer, or an ozone generator or a super powerful protein skimmer. I can not fathom a reef tank needing that kind of
aid. I would like to see you folks go into the links I provided, in depth, go into the sub links also and I feel confident that you will come away much more enlightened. have you gotten into the zeovit thread? lots of references there. I would love to see us "get along", to be an asset to the thread, bring a particular item in for discussion. there is no doubt in my mind that you have not read this entire thread and understood what you have read. I do not in any way mean that as an admonishment, but I think like most people you have started reading from the back of the book.
what you would like me to do is spell it all out for you in black and white, put it into a neat little package, leaving you free of the responsibility of self enlightenment. as stated I can not in good conscience endorse any product, so telling what allegedly worked for me would need be taken with a grain of salt. very much so with using a product as a prophylactic there is no way to ascertain if it is working or not. just because I do not come down with the creeping crud could mean that the crud is not even present
or it could indicate that my prophylactic probiotic has rendered it whatever.
charlyclowns article is a substantial addition to the thread
I do not have the capabilities to fulfill your requests MAXX. the reason being is that I do not have the answers you seek, and the reason for that is due to the recent trend towards probiotics. as I eluded to prior there most likely is a wealth of scams and deceptions involved with these probiotic products. those mfg'rs will list bacteria, enzymes, catalysts, etc but will not list the strain of the bacteria etc ( except for the common nitrifiers) they claim they are trade secrets. probiotics for human use are regulated by law, and must be listed, not so for non food animals. animals for human consumption are strictly regulated.ie; food fish,shellfish. I posted a tropical science website, what is explained there is what I know also. the home site for tropical science does not give much more info. I have not made probiotics my life ambition it is enough for me to know there may exist an alternitive to the expensive radical mechanicals. I believe that when a reference is made to a method, product, new thinking, new resources etc it has done it's job as far as giving a heads up to the public in general. once a person becomes interested in the above then it is up to that person to do the research that will satisfy their needs or their quest for knowledge. I am aware of probiotics, if and when I would have a problem in my aquaria I would first investigate to determine as best I could what the problem is and what is perpetuating it and very likely I would turn to probiotics for a remedy. I do not know what it would take to get me to strap on a uva sterilizer, or an ozone generator or a super powerful protein skimmer. I can not fathom a reef tank needing that kind of
aid. I would like to see you folks go into the links I provided, in depth, go into the sub links also and I feel confident that you will come away much more enlightened. have you gotten into the zeovit thread? lots of references there. I would love to see us "get along", to be an asset to the thread, bring a particular item in for discussion. there is no doubt in my mind that you have not read this entire thread and understood what you have read. I do not in any way mean that as an admonishment, but I think like most people you have started reading from the back of the book.
what you would like me to do is spell it all out for you in black and white, put it into a neat little package, leaving you free of the responsibility of self enlightenment. as stated I can not in good conscience endorse any product, so telling what allegedly worked for me would need be taken with a grain of salt. very much so with using a product as a prophylactic there is no way to ascertain if it is working or not. just because I do not come down with the creeping crud could mean that the crud is not even present
or it could indicate that my prophylactic probiotic has rendered it whatever.
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gman0526
Well-known member
I'm confused about something and i'm pretty sure some others are too. What warranty i have that "X" strand of bacteria that will be dosed will not be outcompeted by the bacteria that's already in the tank? At best it's a 50/50 chance. TY for your replies.
Maxx
Staff Housemonkey
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Rugie,
Once again your manners are sadly lacking...
I have a very difficult time believing anything coming from someone who acts childish and throws temper tantrums. I dont know what your particular problem is, but you need to check your attitude at the door, because it isnt welcome here.
Your information and ideas might be sound, but you tarnish your credibility when you make posts like the one to charlyclown.
A reference can be a manufacturers advertisment. And we're sposed to accept that as an alternative to "radical, expensive mechanicals"?
Sorry rugie, wrong again. I've been here from this thread from the start. I hadnt posted on it before, because you're awful sensitive and after I confronted you in the other thread, I wasnt sure how you would respond. Also, there was nothing for me to add to the thread up until then, I was waiting to see how this thread developed.
Black and white, yes....in a neat little package absolving me of enlightenment, NO.
If avoiding self education was the goal, this board wouldnt exist, and folks wouldnt frequent it, or others like it. What I've been waiting for was for you to actually state soemthing concrete as opposed to generalities...
You, personally, are advocating the use of probiotics. Yet you dont state what you're using in your tank for probiotic effect, what conditions you use Probiotic A, or to prevent X from happening, you use Probiotic Y, etc....
You havent said anything more than probiotics are good for this entire thread. You've elaborated some situations why it should be used and shown us several applications for it, but not one based on home reef keeping as a hobby. The use probiotics in mariculture, (and agriculture) is understood and to some extent necessary. A population of animals is crammed into a small containment area and they pumped full of Probiotics to prevent disease outbreaks. Unless you're keeping schools of tangs in a 55 gallon tank, you're not even close to replicating a mariculture facility at home.
By avoiding answering any questions, you've made this thread a waste of time. If you prefer to use probiotics on your tank, fine. But unless youre willing to explain why, what circumstances, what probiotics your using, and what effect you've noticed while using them, you're fooling yourself if you feel this is a serious discussion. Its not, its you telling us these mystery probiotics are good....
I can read a freaking catalog and get that info.....
Nick
Once again your manners are sadly lacking...
rugie said:
I have a very difficult time believing anything coming from someone who acts childish and throws temper tantrums. I dont know what your particular problem is, but you need to check your attitude at the door, because it isnt welcome here.
Your information and ideas might be sound, but you tarnish your credibility when you make posts like the one to charlyclown.
I did that. Then asked for clarification and brought questions for discussion. This is what I got in return:
A reference can be a manufacturers advertisment. And we're sposed to accept that as an alternative to "radical, expensive mechanicals"?
Sorry rugie, wrong again. I've been here from this thread from the start. I hadnt posted on it before, because you're awful sensitive and after I confronted you in the other thread, I wasnt sure how you would respond. Also, there was nothing for me to add to the thread up until then, I was waiting to see how this thread developed.
Black and white, yes....in a neat little package absolving me of enlightenment, NO.
If avoiding self education was the goal, this board wouldnt exist, and folks wouldnt frequent it, or others like it. What I've been waiting for was for you to actually state soemthing concrete as opposed to generalities...
You, personally, are advocating the use of probiotics. Yet you dont state what you're using in your tank for probiotic effect, what conditions you use Probiotic A, or to prevent X from happening, you use Probiotic Y, etc....
You havent said anything more than probiotics are good for this entire thread. You've elaborated some situations why it should be used and shown us several applications for it, but not one based on home reef keeping as a hobby. The use probiotics in mariculture, (and agriculture) is understood and to some extent necessary. A population of animals is crammed into a small containment area and they pumped full of Probiotics to prevent disease outbreaks. Unless you're keeping schools of tangs in a 55 gallon tank, you're not even close to replicating a mariculture facility at home.
By avoiding answering any questions, you've made this thread a waste of time. If you prefer to use probiotics on your tank, fine. But unless youre willing to explain why, what circumstances, what probiotics your using, and what effect you've noticed while using them, you're fooling yourself if you feel this is a serious discussion. Its not, its you telling us these mystery probiotics are good....
I can read a freaking catalog and get that info.....
Nick
Krish
RF STAFF
A picture is worth a thousand words...
Scooterman
Well-known member
and Krish saves the day! Hurray!!
Krish
RF STAFF
LOL Scooter! If only it was that easy
Maxx, happy now? I checked thru your posts and they are pretty much the same, you are a bully who must have his own way. but you will not bully me.
self proclaimed expert! indeed! just what every one needs. charlyclowns first post on the thread was an effort to discredit it and I told him I was not happy with his approach. I thought I would stick with it and try to bring about some level of acceptable information, but with you it is like beating a dead horse. why are you quoting "me sticking my foot in my mouth"? this has to do with me causing a problem for myself, and nothing to do with others. have you ever considered not participating in a post that you have a problem with? but then that would not allow you to be a bully tho. or have you been appointed the keeper of the threads. I do not need your opinion as it is not credable. and your inability to comprehend any portion of this thread is very obvious. well I will leave some space for your little wipes to inject their "I agree with you MAXX"
then you will feel better. enjoy "your" temper tantrum!
self proclaimed expert! indeed! just what every one needs. charlyclowns first post on the thread was an effort to discredit it and I told him I was not happy with his approach. I thought I would stick with it and try to bring about some level of acceptable information, but with you it is like beating a dead horse. why are you quoting "me sticking my foot in my mouth"? this has to do with me causing a problem for myself, and nothing to do with others. have you ever considered not participating in a post that you have a problem with? but then that would not allow you to be a bully tho. or have you been appointed the keeper of the threads. I do not need your opinion as it is not credable. and your inability to comprehend any portion of this thread is very obvious. well I will leave some space for your little wipes to inject their "I agree with you MAXX"
then you will feel better. enjoy "your" temper tantrum!
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I would have to say that for the posts I have read here, there are a lot of good discussion going back and forth. Some posts get pretty personal when they are not the direction that people want them to go. This is a place for open discussion. Not about who is an expert or who believes others are acting as experts.
Please keep this thread on a civil level and keep the bullying to yourselves. There is no bullying here, just good old fashioned discussion.
This whole thread seems to be beating a dead horse at times, lots of good information, lots of discussion and when someone doesn't chime in what others may want to hear it gets ugly.
Please try to keep this thread on track and if need be, don't post if you don't like a reply.
In my opinion, there is more than one person engaging in temper tantrums on this thread ...
Please keep this thread on a civil level and keep the bullying to yourselves. There is no bullying here, just good old fashioned discussion.
This whole thread seems to be beating a dead horse at times, lots of good information, lots of discussion and when someone doesn't chime in what others may want to hear it gets ugly.
Please try to keep this thread on track and if need be, don't post if you don't like a reply.
In my opinion, there is more than one person engaging in temper tantrums on this thread ...
NaH2O
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2004
- Messages
- 8,568
Let's get back on track here....no one will learn if we keep getting defensive. There isn't anything wrong with asking for more information, clarification or links to better understand.
I went back over the thread to see if I can get a better concept. I looked through links, and am quoting from them:
Alken Clear-Flo 1002
Benefits of Bioclean
Tropical Science Marine Clean
Biological Treatment Products
A couple of things I noticed going through the links provided in earlier posts, of which I also linked a few of them here. It seems that some benefits of probiotics are reducing sluge and organics, improving water quality, and boosting immunity of livestock. Well, my first post on this thread ended with the question "Shouldn't we be shooting for good water quality?" In a complex way, imo, that's what probiotics are doing. Correct my misunderstandings please, as I'm trying to figure this out. Probiotics vs. Mechanical filtration....both are striving for good water quality...getting rid of organics, keeping water clear, etc.....only one is biological and the other mechanical. Using mechanical filtration you also can obtain high water quality, keep livestock healthy and thriving, and eliminate organics and surface scum. IMO, it is easier to control the use of mechanical equipment, than trying to maintain a bacterial population to clean the tank. What about a food source for these bacteria? In order for them to continue to do their job, they will need to have a source of nitrogen and phosphorus, otherwise the population would die back, and release its bound up nutrients for the next part of the chain (whether algae or other bacteria). I found a product for sale in conjunction with another probiotic product that is food for the bacteria in the form of nitrogen and phosphorus: Bio-Nutrients
I also would investigate a problem in my tank and what the source of that problem is, but I would go the route of mechanicals. For me, they work, and nothing beats good husbandry for water quality. I can't imagine keeping a reef tank without the use of a skimmer, as it does a good job of removing DOCs.
As with everything debatable in this hobby, do what works for you. If probiotics are working for your tank, then that's great! Mechanicals work great for me. I like to have a little more control over what is going on with my tank.
I went back over the thread to see if I can get a better concept. I looked through links, and am quoting from them:
Alken Clear-Flo 1002
Benefits of Bioclean
Tropical Science Marine Clean
Biological Treatment Products
A couple of things I noticed going through the links provided in earlier posts, of which I also linked a few of them here. It seems that some benefits of probiotics are reducing sluge and organics, improving water quality, and boosting immunity of livestock. Well, my first post on this thread ended with the question "Shouldn't we be shooting for good water quality?" In a complex way, imo, that's what probiotics are doing. Correct my misunderstandings please, as I'm trying to figure this out. Probiotics vs. Mechanical filtration....both are striving for good water quality...getting rid of organics, keeping water clear, etc.....only one is biological and the other mechanical. Using mechanical filtration you also can obtain high water quality, keep livestock healthy and thriving, and eliminate organics and surface scum. IMO, it is easier to control the use of mechanical equipment, than trying to maintain a bacterial population to clean the tank. What about a food source for these bacteria? In order for them to continue to do their job, they will need to have a source of nitrogen and phosphorus, otherwise the population would die back, and release its bound up nutrients for the next part of the chain (whether algae or other bacteria). I found a product for sale in conjunction with another probiotic product that is food for the bacteria in the form of nitrogen and phosphorus: Bio-Nutrients
rugie said:
I also would investigate a problem in my tank and what the source of that problem is, but I would go the route of mechanicals. For me, they work, and nothing beats good husbandry for water quality. I can't imagine keeping a reef tank without the use of a skimmer, as it does a good job of removing DOCs.
As with everything debatable in this hobby, do what works for you. If probiotics are working for your tank, then that's great! Mechanicals work great for me. I like to have a little more control over what is going on with my tank.
gman0526, there is no guarantee that a known beneficial bacteria will be successful. it is not always a matter of competition with other bacteria, in fact that is rarely the case. lets use cyanobacteria as an example. cyno will flourish in a polluted tank ( cyno is a beneficial food source for several other life forms and in the wild is not known to be a problem) it is always present in our systems, but is held in check by cleanliness and very low levels of nutrients among those being po4 & no3 also it is believed that a specific population of bacteria helps remove the micro sized cyno that is integrated into our tanks. when we unbalance the bio load in an aquarium by over feeding, not performing water chg's, allowing the po4, no3 to elevate. adding too many or the wrong kind of additives, and perhaps in the wrong dosages, too many live animals ineffective sand bed materials or depth, stirring of the sand bed, overburden on the live rock, heavy coatings of coralline algae on the glass panels, etc & etc. we can almost expect to see cyno and nuisance algaes proliferate, now if we were to add a specific strain of bacteria in a product that has the promise of relieving all that cyno and algae we would need about a quart of it and then perhaps not even then curtail the problem. we first must relieve the problem of it's source of pollutants then a regular dosing of a small amount of a beneficial bacteria will bring the tank back to more pristine conditions. at some point in time the bacteria will stop multiplying and die back to a maintain the status quo count. under normal conditions most bacteria will recede to minute numbers but will rarely die out completely even with ozone and uva sterilizing as they take up residence in rock, sand, in the flora and fauna. on plants on the bio films that coat all things in side a tank, even fish and inverts. in the example given products such as "marine liquid gravel vac", (that contains aerobic heterotrophic bacteria), "marine clean" with several different strains of probiotic sludge eating bacteria, and marine max probiotic bacterias that are oxygen generating along with the nitrosomonas-nitrobacters. these are produced by Tropical Science aquarium/pond product s co. I use these 3 items on an ongoing basis the effect I strive for is that of prophylactics. that is to say that I keep what I believe to be a robust amount of these bacteria in my tanks ready to come into action when the need arises. I know when I decided to stop/reduce the bacteria due to my desire to save money my tanks begin to show signs of neglect. I had a case of RTN, the po4,no3 was not under control and I was showing evidence of hair algae on the areas denuded by the RTN. I put in the initial doses and then the maintenance doses again on the prescribed days and after 2weeks of daily small water chg's and 3 weeks of bacterias the tank started it's recovery I have no problems to speak of now.
I am posting a link for you to read up on the heterotrophs.
www.mhhe.com/biosci/genbio/elearning/raven6/resources34.mhtml I hope this answers your concerns if not post again.
I am posting a link for you to read up on the heterotrophs.
www.mhhe.com/biosci/genbio/elearning/raven6/resources34.mhtml I hope this answers your concerns if not post again.
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Scooterman
Well-known member
Good information rugie, I have to wonder how much experience one needs to practically use this method? Is it easier, as effective & cheaper than mechanical methods?
gman0526
Well-known member
Ty rugie for your reply. Gotta read some more. The way i look at this it would be kind of a hassle, at least for me, just to try and get all this additives/boosters, etc. balanced to have it work properly. Now with MY BB setup all i feel i have to do is make sure that nutrients are being exported as they're being exported. Not that BB setups won't benefit from this method but i personally don't feel it would be necessary. JMO as an uneducated individual on this matter.
Anyways TY for your input.
The way i look at this it would be kind of a hassle, at least for me, just to try and get all this additives/boosters, etc. balanced to have it work properly. Now with MY BB setup all i feel i have to do is make sure that nutrients are being exported as they're being exported. Not that BB setups won't benefit from this method but i personally don't feel it would be necessary. JMO as an uneducated individual on this matter.Anyways TY for your input.
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