Probiotics, What?

[wrightme43]

I know you are all very intelligent people, I am very glad to have you all to bounce ideas off of. If I am out of line here I am more than open to more knowledge.
I am sure you all would agree that without the bacteria in our intestines we would be unable to process food and would die. Ask anyone who has taken a long and strong schedule of antibiotics how their digestive track was working at the end. LOL
I am also sure you all would agree that each of us, have these bacteria in our systems because we are alive and able to communicate with each other.
Now would you agree that with over 4 billion of us on the earth that some of us will have different strains of bacteria in our systems?
I understand that when I take antibiotics and my system is out of whack, if I eat yogurt, the bacteria rapidly repopulate my system and allow my digestive system to work right again. Is it perfect right off the bat, no. It does get better as the bacteria grow, die, mutate, and are assisted by other bacteria that get into my system in a way I dont understand.
This in my mind what we are talking about with pro-biotics.
Most of you all know me, I dont work for anybody but my clients. I dont have any axes to grind, or anything to sell to anyone here.
I think there is something to this stuff. I know that there are many food webs in the world. I know that with out bacteria the food web dies all the way to the top. I dont think that the people selling it are completley honest. The have to much invested to be. I dont think that it should be dismissed as crackpot either. I know that there is only so much realestate, and nutrients in my tank. I dont think just pouring a jug of (Jimmies Magic Juice) in my tank everyday will help it. I also dont believe that no-one will ever find the most helpful strains of bacteria, and be able to ship them to me, in a form I can use. I mean you can dig into salt from a dried ocean in the southwest of the U.S. take home a chunk, and dissolve it, and bacteria that have been dormant for 50,000,000 Yes I said 50 MILLION years will begin to come to life and reproduce as if they were only a day old. We are talking about some tough tough and I am talking tough stuff here.
I dont totally agree with the way it has been presented, I think that has caused some hard feelings, which have caused more in response. I know I have been guilty of that in the past. I will say this and shut the heck up. I know that the people who bother me most are the people who are just like me. I get the most angry when I see myself in another human being, and respond at my worst. LOL I am getting better though.
Again if I am way off base here please feel free to share what you think. I love this place and always look forward to spending time here with my friends.
Steve

 

[Scooterman]

Well, yeah, pretty much, but this is true part of the time, in fact, a large part of the time, but not all of the time. High nutrient levels are experienced in nearly all wild reefs with variable frequency depending where they are, and these periods of high nutrient saturation are usually rather "short lived".

Can you show me where you get this information please, I think I need some reading,
thanks.

 

[wrightme43]

Hey Scooty whats up man? Hope your doing good. I think and I may be wrong that he is talking about mass spawning events. Like when the urchins spawn, and the fish, and the clams, and corals, and the shrimp all that jazz. I cant speak for him, just the feeling I got from reading it.

 

[Scooterman]

That sounds reasonable, but even then is this form considered high dissolved nutrients/solids & usable at this point before it is all washed away?

 

[wrightme43]

I dont know the answer to that.
I would think that there would be a concerted effort on the part of the spawner to get as much to live as possible, and to spawn when the current is moving it away from the corals. Then there are eddies to think about, and the bacteria trying to colonize the dead and dying, and the animals that are a little downcurrent from the event getting (possibley) a more steady supply of food than the upcurrent animals. This is making my poor little brain hurt. LOL
And I think I am taking this away thread away from where it is supposed to go. If we are talking about PRO-biotics that wont matter (wether the reef sees large amounts of food intermitantly or not)
What I am most interested in, is how do corals digest food? Do they use bacteria in thier guts like we do?
How does denitrification work, I mean really work, I know its not the simple circle I see printed all the time.
Can I have any control of the bacteria types in my tank?
How do I know which kind of bacteria will help me?
I am I just crazy here?

 

[Scooterman]

Get these tiny tweezers out & a large magnifying glass & pluck the ones you don't want in your tank after identifying them Yea guess we're getting off thread here so back to the big guns.
Oh yea light has to be considered also when thinking food right, Mike explains this throughly we just need to find the discussion that will answer your questions.

 

[wave98]

Can you show me where you get this information please, I think I need some reading,
thanks.

I assume that you are serious in this request, really. If Mojo or Boomer, or whoever doesn't jump in here right away, with estuarial studies, storms, tides, seasonal currents, and on and on and on, then I certianly will get you a link to satisfy your curiosity.

I dont totally agree with the way it has been presented, I think that has caused some hard feelings, which have caused more in response. I know I have been guilty of that in the past. I will say this and shut the heck up. I know that the people who bother me most are the people who are just like me. I get the most angry when I see myself in another human being, and respond at my worst. LOL I am getting better though.
Again if I am way off base here please feel free to share what you think. I love this place and always look forward to spending time here with my friends.

I suffer from it too. I "try", but ask my wife and see if she agrees!!!

Another brilliant analogy to be sure!!! If you guys keep this up, I'm not going to get to say "brilliant" any more!! I guess that's just the way it goes here at RF, were all just blinded by the light!!!!! I'm sure Mojo can hand out some "blinders" for us, just so we can see each other properly.

Really Scooter, it's hard to believe that you are not intimately familiar with this, but if you really need the info, I'll dig it up for you. I would think that it would be in the RF resource library, or else-wise, in about 1 out of every 4 posts that Boomer has ever posted.

Nice Day everyone, > Wave98

 

[MikeS]

Wow wave, I really don't even know where to start with this my friend...:lol:

Well, yeah, pretty much, but this is true part of the time, in fact, a large part of the time, but not all of the time. High nutrient levels are experienced in nearly all wild reefs with variable frequency depending where they are, and these periods of high nutrient saturation are usually rather "short lived".

infrequent and short lived...hmmm... a correllation to the reef tank...perhaps feeding time? Bottom line, most of the time we are dealing with a low nutrient level period in the water of the wild reef.

Yes, it would, but this attempted duplication should actually represent all of the nutrient satuaration conditions that occur in wild reefs, and not only the most common condition, which is of course "nutrient poor". Nutrient rich occurs as well, for short periods of time. This includes dissolved nutrients of course, as well as "solids

Solids? Feeding time again?

Can you do it with bacteria?

Yes.

And how? With bacteria all you are doing is transforming one nutrient into another and recycling it back into the system for the most part, very little export...explain to me how this is dupicating the lower nutrient content of the water on the wild reef?

Well, that is true in many cases, but not in most cases, there are a lot of "cases". Look at LdrHawke for one with his version of "vodka dosing". He is pulling bacteria out of the system. This is a specialized system that he runs, and I understand that he is "dosing", but he is creating a "net export" just the same.

Sure, he's pulling some nutrients out of the system, in theory...but isnt' adding one nutrient to aid the removal of others kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul? still have a nutrient issue there as I see it....

"Bottom limes" are very interesting animals, they tend to "morph" every 3 to 9 months.

What is that supposed to mean?

Now that is a really big "animal", and TIME is an extremely "relative" term. Recycling is certianly not "simple".

Time is relative? ok then....it's relative to how long you yourself want a stable, healthy system and are able to provide it using an inheriently unstable approch like bacteria, how's that? And I never said the actual process of recycling nutrients was simple, only the fact that is what is primarliy occuring in your tank when dealing with bacterial systems is simple....let's not play smartass semantic games, ok? I think you know exactly what I meant.

The largest part of bacterial activity as it pertains to the food chain on the reef does not take place on the reef itself, or in the swamps or grass beds, it takes place in the deep, open water. And even here, these nutrients are not reduced, they are recycled.

Really, I would like to hear more about that. I think you might have fallen off your stool here.

Let me get you a stool.... It's quite simple really...ever been scuba diving or seen video of the deep ocean? See all the marine "snow" falling everywhere? It's solid waste. Where does that waste come from? From the fish in the open sea? No, most of it comes from the largest concentration of life in the ocean...the reef. The vast majority of solid waste produced on the reef that isn't consumed is carried into the deep open waters, where it settles and is dealt with by bacteria. Some of it is used up in metabolisim by these bacteria, but most of it is recycled back into the water column in various forms. What's waiting for it then? Microflora and microfauna, which reintroduce these nutrients back into the higher food chain. The Bacteria found in the swamps and grass beds are secondary to this process.

The bioload in even the most lighty stocked reef vs. gallons of water is many, many, many times greater than what you see in the wild, period. You are always going to be dealing with nutrients in excess, by the nature of the tank.

You have not specified "dissolved" VS "solid" nutrients here, I think it would be prudent to do so

Does it matter? Both....both are highly in excess when compared to the wild reef on a bioload vs. volume of water ratio...

If you have this "excess" then quit over feeding.

I don't think you are getting the big picture at all here. Feeding properly isn't going to solve this problem, you are still talking about a much higher bioload in even the most sparcely populated and fed tank when compared to the wild reef.

Personally, I think it is impossible to strip a tank of nutrients entierly by using mechanical means. The skimmer keeps producing skimmate, doesn't it? Hmmm....I wonder why....

Are you talking about your tank or someone elses? They aren't all the same you know.

I'm talking about every tank I've ever had, and pretty much every tank I've ever seen. Do you know somebody who really skimmed ALL the nutrients out of their tank? I'd like to see that.

Reef tanks can and should be run differently depending on the animals that are kept in them.

Obvioulsy

Broad generalizations should be avoided as to appropriate Reef Keeping practices, in order to avoid confusion for new hobbyists, and to maintain accuracy.

I hope this is helpful.

Thanks to all, > Wave98

What???? What broad generalizations were made here that are not pretty applicable? How about "excessively high nutrient levels are not usually healthy for the reef tank"? It's "broad" and "general" but TRUE! How the hell is that going to confuse a new hobbyist? And how is it inaccurate? Spare me, please....

MikeS

 

[gman0526]

Somebody really needs to do a search on coral reef eutrophication and the dynamics of reef flushing rates and then let's talk dissolved nutrient concentration on coral reefs water. Jesus Christ.

 

[Scooterman]

wave, I was looking for a little more clarification as to what your intents on why you basically rephrased MikeS & was this information something that you read documented elsewhere not meaning RF, if you do go ahead post some links it will be helpful.

 

[wave98]

Wow wave, I really don't even know where to start with this my friend...:lol:

Apparently not. We could be friends if you could relax.

infrequent and short lived...hmmm... a correllation to the reef tank...perhaps feeding time?

Variable frequency, and short lived, actually, as originally stated. Well, if we were going to correlate it to a reeftank Vs to "in the wild" as was stated, feeding time isn't a bad start.

Bottom line, most of the time we are dealing with a low nutrient level period in the water of the wild reef. :

There is that "Bottom line" thing again, and "period", so I guess that now it has been definitively explained.

Solids? Feeding time again?

Geeze, "Solids" Heh? I suppose that you don't believe that there are "solids" in the wild? Feeding time? I'm the one who doesn't have detritus in my tank, did you forget?

And how? With bacteria all you are doing is transforming one nutrient into another and recycling it back into the system for the most part, very little export...explain to me how this is dupicating the lower nutrient content of the water on the wild reef?

I suppose that you think that corals and other organisms do not feed on or elsewise utilize bacteria either directly, or indirectly. You seem to be "fixated" on the idea that I am promoting "probiotics". I am participating in this thread in order to learn, and I'm not nearly done learning. It appears, that maybe you are.

Sure, he's pulling some nutrients out of the system, in theory...but isnt' adding one nutrient to aid the removal of others kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul?

I'm not sure. No religious references here. Remember?

still have a nutrient issue there as I see it....

Well, we all have nutrient issues, that is what we strive to control. Isn't that why we discuss many issues here on RF, I think that more threads are devoted to nutrient control than anything else. Maybe not, I'm not sure.

What is that supposed to mean?

If everything was already figured out then we would live in Utopia, and there would not be any need to discuss Reef Keeping in forums like this, because all the answers would already be known. Does that help any?

Time is relative? ok then....it's relative to how long you yourself want a stable, healthy system and are able to provide it using an inheriently unstable approch like bacteria, how's that?

I guess that is fine, So Bacteria primarily then, represent an unstable approach to keeping a reef tank? Are you suggesting that we use 30 weight motor oil instead?

And I never said the actual process of recycling nutrients was simple, only the fact that is what is primarliy occuring in your tank when dealing with bacterial systems is simple....let's not play smartass semantic games, ok? I think you know exactly what I meant.

You know, I was actually entirely straight forward in all the statements that I made in the post that you are referring to.

I think "Smart-Ass" is a tad bit severe here, but If you look slowly and carefully in the mirror, you might just understand it better.

Let me get you a stool.... It's quite simple really...ever been scuba diving or seen video of the deep ocean? See all the marine "snow" falling everywhere? It's solid waste.

Really, so now now you admit that there is solid waste in the ocean.

Where does that waste come from? From the fish in the open sea? No, most of it comes from the largest concentration of life in the ocean...the reef.

So most of this comes from the reef, right? "Flip-flop"!!!! Is this the natural condition in "the wild" yet?

The vast majority of solid waste produced on the reef that isn't consumed is carried into the deep open waters, where it settles and is dealt with by bacteria. Some of it is used up in metabolisim by these bacteria, but most of it is recycled back into the water column in various forms.

Golly gee, what are these forms? Dissolved, I suppose.

What's waiting for it then? Microflora and microfauna, which reintroduce these nutrients back into the higher food chain.

That sounds like a good idea.

The Bacteria found in the swamps and grass beds are secondary to this process.

Maybe we oughta just "nuke" those swamps and grass beds then.

Does it matter?

Of course it does.

Both....both are highly in excess when compared to the wild reef on a bioload vs. volume of water ratio...

You know, that actually makes sense, so I guess maybe trying to duplicate "wild reef " conditions just isn't going to be adequate.

I don't think you are getting the big picture at all here.

I get the "big picture" just fine, The wild reef, now that's a big picture. It's the "little picture", that I think you are not understanding, our "reef tanks".

Feeding properly isn't going to solve this problem,

Well, you're right there, it is going to take a lot of good husbandry practices, to do that, but those husbandry practices are not "permanently carved in stone", as you apparently prefer to believe.

you are still talking about a much higher bioload in even the most sparcely populated and fed tank when compared to the wild reef.

I think you got that one right.

I'm talking about every tank I've ever had, and pretty much every tank I've ever seen.

Sounds like you need new glasses or something.

Do you know somebody who really skimmed ALL the nutrients out of their tank? I'd like to see that.

No I don't. It sounds like it would be really expensive.

What???? What broad generalizations were made here that are not pretty applicable?

Many statements about nutrient levels that exist in the wild, and there relavence in time and as you try to apply them in "reference" to "captive reef systems". Don't ask me which ones they are, I just explained that.

How about "excessively high nutrient levels are not usually healthy for the reef tank"? It's "broad" and "general" but TRUE!

I think you got that one right. They usually aren't.

How the hell is that going to confuse a new hobbyist? And how is it inaccurate?

That won't, and it isn't.

Spare me, please....

With a "cherry on top", maybe, otherwise I doubt it.

You might try having a discussion with me instead of an argument, it works great!

Happy Reef Keeping > Wave98

 

[wave98]

Somebody really needs to do a search on coral reef eutrophication and the dynamics of reef flushing rates and then let's talk dissolved nutrient concentration on coral reefs water. Jesus Christ.

I could not have stated it better myself. > Thanks, and SPS tanks, are not the only kind of "coral reefs".

Scooter, I rephrased MikeS because he is having an attitude instead of stating facts. Just a little "clarification".

I am actually REALLY EASY to get along with. Anyone can try it anytime they want.

Happy Reef Keeping to all!! > Wave98

 

[Scooterman]

Is anyone Here actually trying probiotics and showing us actual results hands on? Why spend money on this when you still will have to clean up after it otherwise the results will become the same, you will get a tank full of algae. I think originally this was the purpose of this thread to explain that & that was done a while back, time to end this thread, this blabbering of high kahunas isn't helping anyone.

 

[wave98]

Is anyone Here actually trying probiotics and showing us actual results hands on? .

rugie has been trying to.

Why spend money on this when you still will have to clean up after it otherwise the results will become the same, you will get a tank full of algae.

Is that how it works? And how do you get away with "heaving" the "last swipe" and then threaten to have the thread closed, in the same paragraph anyway?????

I think originally this was the purpose of this thread to explain that & that was done a while back,

So, one case, "rugie's", and it's all over?

time to end this thread, this blabbering of high kahunas isn't helping anyone.

You are right about the "blabbering", but closing it isn't going to solve it, and other than MikeS using the S____A__ word, I think it has been rather "gentlemanly" as of late.

How about if we calm down and discuss it, I have been calling for that for a good bit now. Is that a bad Idea?

Where is Nikki when we need her? Us "Guys" need a little bit of "direction".

Anyway, you're the staff here, so if all of this clamoring for a discussion is unworhty, then do as you must.

I tried to be nice, and I am still trying. Oh well. > Wave98

 

[Scooterman]

no I'm not going to shut this down I'll leave that to the others, it just seems to keep sliding. It is good to get solid information & discussion I agree, maybe we just need to stop quoting every line as defense & just throw as much good information back instead.
As far as you being nice wave I have to say your doing better than you have in the past, just be clear in what you type & leave off the haste. There is that direct enough?

 

[MikeS]

There is that "Bottom line" thing again, and "period", so I guess that now it has been definitively explained.

So are you saying that it isn't true that the water on the wild reef is basically very poor in nutrients?

Geeze, "Solids" Heh? I suppose that you don't believe that there are "solids" in the wild? Feeding time? I'm the one who doesn't have detritus in my tank, did you forget?

No detritus in your tank? None at all? Is it totally free of life? Nothing in there producing detritus at all? yeah....so where is this detritus going...?

I suppose that you think that corals and other organisms do not feed on or elsewise utilize bacteria either directly, or indirectly. You seem to be "fixated" on the idea that I am promoting "probiotics". I am participating in this thread in order to learn, and I'm not nearly done learning. It appears, that maybe you are.

Your assupmtion would be wrong....I never once said anything close to that...nor did I even once mention "probiotics" in my response to your post, did I? I'm always learning, done a fair amount of that in my 20+ years keeping marine tanks....and some lessons I learned the hard way, like over-reliance on bacterially driven systems in the tank....but hey, the lessons learned hard are also the ones learned best...

I'm not sure. No religious references here. Remember?

Well, we all have nutrient issues, that is what we strive to control. Isn't that why we discuss many issues here on RF, I think that more threads are devoted to nutrient control than anything else. Maybe not, I'm not sure.

If everything was already figured out then we would live in Utopia, and there would not be any need to discuss Reef Keeping in forums like this, because all the answers would already be known. Does that help any?

I guess that is fine, So Bacteria primarily then, represent an unstable approach to keeping a reef tank? Are you suggesting that we use 30 weight motor oil instead?

You know, I was actually entirely straight forward in all the statements that I made in the post that you are referring to.

I think "Smart-Ass" is a tad bit severe here, but If you look slowly and carefully in the mirror, you might just understand it better.

All these comments go in the smartass cloumn that I'm not going to waste time responding to.

Really, so now now you admit that there is solid waste in the ocean.

Did I even once say there wasn't? where are you getting this stuff?:?:

So most of this comes from the reef, right? "Flip-flop"!!!! Is this the natural condition in "the wild" yet?

Golly gee, what are these forms? Dissolved, I suppose.

and these comments fall in the cloumn of I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here, so again...no response...

Maybe we oughta just "nuke" those swamps and grass beds then.

Ok, if these are so essential to the reef, explain the presence of reefs on sea mounds....hundreds of miles away from mangrove swamps and sea grass...how ever do they survive without that "crutch" I wonder?:?: The swamps and sea grass beds are the RESULT of the reef, not the reason the reef is able to exist...I think you have it backwards...

I get the "big picture" just fine, The wild reef, now that's a big picture. It's the "little picture", that I think you are not understanding, our "reef tanks".

Yeah, I just don't get it, you are right...that's why I have a healthy 5+ year old reef to show for all my lack of understanding...

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/html.php?file=../motm/may_2005/may_2005_mikes.htm

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/photos_members/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=937&thumb=1

Lets see some pictures of your tank....

Well, you're right there, it is going to take a lot of good husbandry practices, to do that, but those husbandry practices are not "permanently carved in stone", as you apparently prefer to believe.

No they are not carved in stone, but "tried and true" is exactly what it says it is...

Sounds like you need new glasses or something.

opps....forgot to put this one in the above "smartass" cloumn...

You might try having a discussion with me instead of an argument, it works great!

Happy Reef Keeping > Wave98

sure, I'd love to...put the smartass comments away and bring something solid to the table and we'll talk...

Personally, I don't care what you put in your tank. You want to risk your tank on some unstable biological method like probiotocs or a high frequency wasting plenum, that's your business...I wish you nothing but success...the very point I'm trying to make here is if you have a system that relys heavily on bacteria, you have an inherintley unstable system that will be more difficult to control in the long run....and we are, after all, in this for the long run, right?

MikeS

 

[MtnDewMan]

Obviously this thread has run it's course. There is a lot of useful information here. As of late it has turned to blows and therefore I am making the decision to close this thread and those interested in the topic can review the information and make their own decisions based on the information presented by all.

Thanks for all of the participation and let's move on to other productive discussions without the heat of the moment posts.