Puffers bruising

[j_fers]

Hello, I am very new to the internet world and have been enjoying the Q&A's posted on your site. I have had a 90 gallon marine tank for about 4yrs now and started the adventure by falling in love with a porcupine puffer at my local aquarium store. I currently have a strange "something" taking over my tank and I have seen this a few times before. I have spoken to many marine enthusiasts and no one seems to know what is going on in there, perhaps you will know... About a week ago my fish developed something that looks like ich. I had a bannerfish, clown, tang, 3 damsels, trigger(had for 3.5yrs), and of course my dog face puffer(had for 10months). My water condition is almost perfect except for my PH is a little low 7.8 from 8.2. I immediately started treating them by raising the temp from 78 degrees to 81 and lowered the salinity from .022 to .018. Unfortunately the "ich" or whatever it is got much worse. I lost my clown and bannerfish and my puffer developed a thick white patch between his mouth and gill. I started freshwater dips on him (same temp. and PH) but that also made him worse the white patch grew and turned dark almost like a bruise. I have now seen this bruising on 2 other puffers in my tank and both times no one could help. I finally decided to get medication but didn't know what i was treating. After a long chat with my local aquarium store we decided to treat the tank with a non copper based solution that treats many different kinds of parasites and bacteria such as, fungus, fin rot, ich, etc. By the time i was ready to give the tank a 1/2 dose the bruising took over his body and he died (it broke my heart). He was breathing very heavy, wouldn't eat(for 2-3 days), and it looked like he was urinating a thick white substance. The bruising and the other symptoms are the same thing that happened to my other puffers (a porcupine and another dogface). I have since medicated the tank and by the next morning my fish looked much better but by the end of the day they are covered with white thick spots again. I really don't know what to do and don't want to loose my remaining fish. I would also really like to have a puffer some day but i am very afraid that there is something in my tank that will cause this to happen again. If i can figure it out maybe i can get rid of it. Please help, any advice is welcome. Thanks j_fers

 

[NaH2O]

Welcome to Reef Frontiers!!!

Here is a bump for you. I'm linking you to a thread where some dosage recommendations were made in comparison to what is on the bottle. Hope you find it helpful, and perhaps some of the diseases mentioned in the thread may be of benefit as well: Need Advice on Quarantine Tank

 

[j_fers]

Thanks for the advice. I will check that out. I really appreciate you sending me that info. The tank is still going downhill, but their fighting! j_fers

 

[steve-s]

About a week ago my fish developed something that looks like ich. I had a bannerfish, clown, tang, 3 damsels, trigger(had for 3.5yrs), and of course my dog face puffer(had for 10months). My water condition is almost perfect except for my PH is a little low 7.8 from 8.2......my puffer developed a thick white patch between his mouth and gill.....By the time i was ready to give the tank a 1/2 dose the bruising took over his body and he died (it broke my heart). He was breathing very heavy, wouldn't eat(for 2-3 days), and it looked like he was urinating a thick white substance. The bruising and the other symptoms are the same thing that happened to my other puffers (a porcupine and another dogface).

Given these symptoms, I would be inclined to think a digenean trematode. If the animals are eating, Piperazine would be the best suggestion. There is still the possibility of Brooklynella or Vibrio but given there have been no recent additions (?) trematodes seem most likely.

Above all else, improving living conditions/food values should be implemented immediately if so.

I immediately started treating them by raising the temp from 78 degrees to 81 and lowered the salinity from .022 to .018. Unfortunately the "ich" or whatever it is got much worse.

For future reference, these altered conditions only increase the problem. Neither will help with/if C. irritans infestations. After 10 months and no additional fish/items, it's extremely rare this would be the case anyway. Increased temp only helps the parasite speed up it's reproductive cycle furthering the infestation. It also alters the pH of the fish's blood reducing the effectiveness of it's natural immune response. Only salinities below 16 ppt will affect the tomont stage of the parasite.

Cheers
Steve

 

[j_fers]

Thanks Steve, no nothing new has been added for quite some time and i have had these fish for a while now. Everyone is eating except for my trigger (who i have had for over 3 yrs), he stopped eating today. Hes just hiding in his cave which is extremely concerning because he has always bounced back and is typically very active. The trigger and a damsel seem to be highly infected right now. The severity of their condition does get worse when the salinity goes up slightly. Its not as filmy looking as it was on my puffer (no bruising on them but hey are dark in color) but more like flakes of white and now some of the areas have a red hue. I have never dropped my salinity that low before but its worth a shot. I will look for piperazine as well thanks for the help. No one has suggested this before. Wish us luck, j fers

 

[NaH2O]

Here are a couple of articles for you. The second one talks about hyposalinity treatment that Steve mentioned for ich. j fers - any chance of posting a couple of photos of the fish? It might help others in the future to see what the fish looks like, incase they have something similar. Let us know how your treatment goes, or if you have trouble getting the piperazine.

Aquarium Fish Illnesses - Treatment of Choice

Aquarium Fish Disorders - Saltwater Fish Diseases - Treatment of Choice, Part 2

 

[j_fers]

Thanks Nikki, Im going to read over the info you mentioned it looks very helpful. I unfortunately don't have a way of posting pictures but it would probably help. ("a picture is worth a thousand words!") I've been looking through some of the other pictures posted but nothing really looks the same. The only one that kind of resembled it was in the article Steve told me to look at earlier it was close to what happened to my puffer. The other fish didn't get that bruising on them. Is piperazine an ingredient, a treatment or a brand? My regular person i talk to at my local aquarium store is on holidays.(Great timing.LOL) Right now i am slowly lowering the salinity, its at .017 and the fish seem lethargic. I am taking them to .015, do you think thats too low? Im just nervous. Thanks you have been extremely helpful, I will keep you posted. j-fers

 

[steve-s]

Its not as filmy looking as it was on my puffer (no bruising on them but hey are dark in color) but more like flakes of white and now some of the areas have a red hue.

Posting some pics as Nikki suggested could definately help although would not be conclusive. The kicker with these kinds of ailments (similar symptoms) is they must often be ID'd under a microscope for proper verification. Otherwise you need to take the best educated guess possible and treat more broad ranged than you would knowing for sure the certain cause.

The two additional symptoms you note are also indicitive of trematodes but also Vibrio, Uronema and common bacterial fungal infections. Especially if white tufts surrounded/amid hemouraged areas but could simpley be secondary as a result of parasite activity. I would forgo with the hyposalinity until you know what "best treatment" may otherwise help. Not all meds are compatible with hypo. Lowered salinity (not hypo levels) will help with fish stress to some degree and can often rekindle a feeding response in an ailing fish.

Could you please also post any additional parameters possible, NH3+, NO2, NO3 as well as the regular diet fed/water change maintenance. Your bioload/fish type suggests there might be higher than desirable NO3 which can contribute greatly to certain ailments mentioned.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

Piperazine also goes by Pipzine. You might also try asking about Praziquantel (PraziPro) use @ 8-10mg/gal if digenean. The only problem with either of these treatments is it must be administered via foods so keep working on getting their appetites back.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Terry B]

I think Steve has given some very solid advice, but I would reduce the salinity further. If you maintain the pH reducing the salinity to 14ppt (specific gravity of about 1.009) will not hurt the fish. Hypo can help control and even eliminate some external parasites. Since you do not have a positive ID of the infection I would also suggest a multi-pronged attach. Uronema and brooklynella are possibilities based on your description. Formalin dips may work well, but I would be hesitant to suggest them if the fish have any open wounds. I would NOT suggest a FW dip. The darkening of the fish may very well indicate a systemic bacterial infection and a vibrio strain is certainly suspect. My best guess is some sort of external parasite infection complicated with a secondary bacterial infection. Bacterial infections are generally not that contagious in a marine aquarium so I doubt that this is a simple bacterial infection.
BTW, a lot of current research indicates that marine fish actually grow better in hyposaline conditons. The most common salinity suggested for application in aquaculture is 14ppt. This is some very strong evidence that hyposaline conditions are not stressful to these fish (they do need some salt).

Cheers,
Terry B