Quarantine tank

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Earthgoddess

Active member
Joined
Oct 13, 2005
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27
Location
Medical Lake, Wa
In our Quarantine tank we had some fish that had this parasite I was told to lower the salinity to 1.009 that would take care of the parasite if kept in that tank for two weeks after it all dropped off of the fish. Ok so I did all that and I am acclimating the new fish to there new home.

Do I keep the quarantine tank at 1.009 or bring it back up for future fish?

I ask because we have this thick slimy algae all over everything because of the low salinity (I Think)

So I wondered if we live with it or raise the salinity??
 
I would bring it back up. If any fish need to go in there in the future, they would need to have the SG dropped slowly, over roughly a 2 day period, not all at once. Personally, I would just empty and clean it (especially if you have slime growing), then start over with tank water the next time you need to use the QT.

Susie :)
 
First i would wash it out really well. After you've washed it out i waould refill it and match it with the salinity in your main tank. Since when ever you buy a fish it will end up going into your main tank sometime its best to keep your QT at the same temp and salinity. Thats just my opinion. Sounds like the parasite you had was Ich.
 
I would clean the tank as mentioned, and then if you plan on getting any more fish in the near future, keep it setup using the same filter and raising the pH back to 1.025 (or whatever you plan to have in your show tank).

I would only drop the pH at signs of infection to reduce stress...

Take er easy
Scott T.
 
Are you reading your salinity with a refractometer? It is important to use a refractometer when doing hyposalinity, as it ensures you are at the correct salinity. Hydrometers can be off, and might have enough error to not kill off the parasite.

How long have the fish been in hyposalinity conditions (i.e. when was hyposalinity reached)? The fish should be QTed at hyposalinity levels for 4 weeks after the last spot is observed. After this, you will want to raise the salinity for the fish in the QT gradually over the week, then allow them to be at normal salinity for another week before transferring to the display.

steve-s said:
Go slowly and ensure the increase is done gradually over a week. Doing daily water changes with normal salinity water is usually the safest. 20% daily at 35 ppt will get you back up to normal in about 5-7 days.

From this thread: Fish Moving Time Please!

and in regards to cleaning....this quote is from the same thread:

steve-s said:
Nothing should be shared between the main and QT. Ideally, you should have two sets of everything (or per QT) so as not to cross contaminate. Some items are easily sterilized but others can be deceptive. The pump for instance has many grooves and small surfaces that can eaily harbor the parasite. It's something to be strictly avoided. If nothing else, use a 10:1 bleach solution for equipment that will not be harmed by it's use. A little extreme but safer than anything else. Just be sure ut's well rinsed in fresh water first and allowed to air dry so the chlorine dissapates.
 
Hi all

Personally, I've never been a big fan of hyposalinity, for a number of reasons. Now I'm not saying it doesn't work, there is plenty of information out there indicating that it is an effective tool when dealing with parasites. What scares me about hyposalinity is the potential stress on the fish. Marine fish have a different osmotic balance in their tissues than their freshwater counterparts, which deals with thier ability to deal with urine build-up in thier cells. Changing the salinity of the surrounding water affects thier ability to metabolize and keep the waste/water ratio correct in thier tissues. An imbalance here is only going to lead to stress and possible damage to the fish.

With the wide variety of medications available on the market to treat bacterial, fungal, and parasite infections (as well as serve a profilactic function in the QT tank) personally, I see no need to subject the fish to the added stress of hyposalinity, I view it as unecessary and risky.

Please don't get me wrong, I know many use it and I'm likely in the minority here on the subject of hyposalinity. I hope, however, that those unfimiliar with it will take a closer look at it before attempting it in the QT tank...

MikeS
 
Well I guess I should have used the forum before now I moved the fish today I slowly acclimated them and they are doing well.

Thanks for everyone's opinions
 
MikeS - the hyposalinity is not stressful on the fish, and decreases stress by allowing the fish to save energy normally used in osmoregulation. Provided pH is maintained along with other parameters such as temperature, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates in a QT, I think it is a great procedure.

From: Quarantine Tank Methodology - Part 2

Lowering the salinity to less than that of natural seawater is a common practice among public aquariums, hatcheries and fisheries. Lessening the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and their surrounding environment reduces osmotic pressure. This conserves metabolic energy that would normally be required for osmoregulation. Since hydromineral imbalances are inherent to stress in fish, lowering the salinity can reduce the effects of these stressors. Dr. Cheung (Cheung et al., 1979) reported that boney marine fish could be kept in a salinity of 16ppt “indefinitely.” I do not suggest maintaining marine fish in a salinity less than natural seawater on a permanent basis.

From: Reducing Losses Associated with Transport and Handling in Marine Aquarium Fish

Significant portions of post shipment losses are due to osmoregulatory dysfunction and stress-mediated diseases occurring within the first week after transport (Johnson & Metcalf, 1982. Carmicheal et. al, 1984). Stress in fish causes osmoregulatory dysfunction (Harrell & Moline, 1992. Weirich et. al, 1992). This can lead to mortalities (Tomasso et. al, 1980). Reducing the gradient (difference in salinity) between the internal fluids of fish and the surrounding ambient water alleviates water and ion disturbance ((Wedemeyer, 1996). Manipulating the salinity of the transport water upward for freshwater fish and conversely downward for saltwater fish is effective for controlling osmoregulatory disturbances and reducing losses (Carneiro &Urbinati, 2001). Fish held in water that is close to isotonic (the salinity of the surrounding ambient water is close to the internal fluids of the fish) have increased stress resistance (Lim et. al, 2000). These fish also display a significantly lower mortality rate at 7 days post shipment.

From: Quarantine of Marine Fish (Teleost) Using Hyposalinity

The other advantage that is of great interest with hyposalinity, is the reduction of osmotic stress on fish with abrasions or lesions. In theory, the reduction of the osmolar gradient between the internal tissues and the surrounding environment would be beneficial to injured mucus and epidermal tissue. This reduction in the osmolar gradient, in theory, greatly reduces the loss of water from the fish to the surrounding environment. The ability to maintain hydration in an injured marine fish too small to administer fluids could prove very beneficial. Many more studies, which are ongoing at this time, and sample collections remain to prove this theorized aspect of low salinity.
 
Wow Nikki, that goes against a lot of stuff I have been told and taught. Interesting info to mull over...

Take er easy
Scott T.
 
Hello and again thanks for all the info.
It was my understanding that a lower salinity in QT would be less stress to new fish although I did not know anything about how much lower until asking our lfs what to do about the parasite on the fish he told me to lower the salinity which I did slowly about one week to 1.009
I then asked how long At a reef meeting I was told to wait 2 weeks after the last parasite was seen because the low salinity only killed the parasite in the swimming stage before it host on the fish after dropping off and starting the cycle again so that is what I did and time will tell how well it has worked since I have now transferred the fish to there new home.

I did a major water change using established tank water as the refill and added a bunch of our green plant that I understand uses the same nutrients the algae feeds on so it should use it rather than feeding the algae in the QT tank which has live rock in it so I did not start over It is my understanding that if the parasite has nothing to host (fish) on then it will not survive so ideally the parasite will run its life cycle in a set period of time depending on temp etc. And then it will be gone then can add fish does that seem right?

The green algae has lessened almost melted away since yesterday.
 
Hi all

Nikki, yes, I have heard that, but there is plenty of contraditory information out there as well...:D

The body fluids of a freshwater contain more dissolved salts and ions than the surrounding water. As a result of this imbalance there is a constant influx of water into its body and a loss of salts and ions from the blood outwards.

The mechanism may seem complex but essentially a fish has to rid its body of excess inflowing water by constantly excreting a weak solution of urine. Fresh-water fish can urinate approximately 30 per cent of their body mass each day. Salts are removed from the urine before it is excreted (fish are not wasters, remember) and they are also actively taken up from the water by way of the gills in order to maintain internal salt levels. This constant active absorption of salts requires energy but is essential to the fish's survival, and anything that affects this vital function will have serious effects on the health or even survival of the fish.

The reverse situation exists in marine fish; the environment contains more dissolved salts and ions than the fish's body so there is a net movement of water out of the fish's body into the stronger sea-water. To replace this constant loss of water, marine fish drink sea-water and excrete the excess salts. Special cells in the gills called chloride excretory cells are involved in this process.

Clearly, any interference to the fish's osmoregulatory systems, either fresh water or marine, would quickly prove fatal! Fresh water fish would rapidly accumulate water (a typical sign seen in dropsy), while marine fish would dehydrate. Clearly, our health considerations must take aboard the importance of osmoregulation which can be affected by instances such as water hardness, ulcer disease and stress.

I know many use hyposalinity succesfully, and it is generally accepted as "safe", just to me it seems an unnecessary process given the wide variety of medications out there for use in QT tanks, and logically I don't see how messing with osmotic pressures in the fish would relive stress...I would think it would increase it...

MikeS
 
Interestingly, it seems a faculty member here (Dr. Edward Noga) is a proponent of hyposalinity treatment and has written a few books discussing it (amongst other things). I might pick his brain on the issue if I have a chance...

It does seem to be a bit of a controversial subject...I had no idea.

Take er easy
Scott T.
 
ScottT - I've seen Dr. Noga's name cited in some disease articles. That's really cool! If you get a chance to pick his brain, I'd love to hear what he says.

MikeS - you are making me do some work here....lolol. Some more info (BTW - how's that BB working out for ya);). Osmoregulation: Please give me a drink!

Marine fish (teleosts) have the exact opposite problem to that encountered by freshwater teleosts. Their body fluids are, again, 1/3 of that of sea water but this time they are in sea water so their body fluids are hypoosmotic to their environment. As a result they will tend to lose water by osmosis to the environment through their skin but mostly through their gills. Consequently, they have developed mechanisms and behaviour to compensate for this water loss. Firstly, the kidneys of marine teleosts are modified in such a way that very little water is extracted from the blood, some species even lack certain kidney structures and can't eliminate water (Gordon, 1977; Moyle and Cech, 1982). This results in a reduction in the loss of water by the production of urine. However, water is still being lost by the gills and this cannot be stopped, so the only method left is to somehow replace the water as quickly as it is lost. Marine teleosts accomplish this by actually drinking water, the most reliable drinking rates reported in the literature range from 3-10 ml/(kg hr) (Gordon, 1977). However, drinking water by itself cannot solve the problem, a complex series of events must first occur in the digestive tract. These events are not yet well understood but it is known that most of the water is absorbed as are the monovalent ions Na+ and Cl- (they are, after all, drinking salt water!), while the divalent ions (such as magnesium and sulfates) are excreted by the kidneys (Gordon, 1977). Sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) also move by diffusion into the body through the gills. Therefore, Na+ and Cl- ions will accumulate in the body of the fish and must be eliminated, this is accomplished by special cells in the gills called chloride cells, which me these ions out of the body by active transport (Moyle and Cech, 1982; Gordon, 1977).

From the above information some practical tips for the hobbyist can be gained. Since marine fish must constantly expel various solutes, such as sodium and chloride ions, against an osmotic gradient, a great deal of energy is required. Therefore, anything that you can do to lower the osmotic gradient will benefit the fish in terms of energy expenditure. The simplest way of doing this is to lower the salinity of the water as much as possible, particularly for a fish in distress (i.e. diseased). This alone can sometimes be enough to ease their burden. Of course any such change must be extremely gradual and must not get to the point where the fish is in obvious stress. Another problem comes when invertebrates are added, especially the soft-bodied ones such as anemones and corals; a drop in salinity can be disastrous for them. Since marine fish produce very concentrated urine, their waste products can pollute a tank far quicker than a freshwater fish which produces much more dilute wastes. That is why you can usually put in many more freshwater fish than marine fish in the same volume of water. That is why paying attention to the water quality of a marine tank is so much more critical than in a freshwater tank. With the advent of dry/wet filter systems from Europe, the load in marine aquaria can now be greatly increased due to the superior ability of the filter to handle waste products. That is why the so called "mini-reef" systems are becoming so popular with hobbyists, many more animals can be kept in a smaller volume of water with little risk of pollution.

I'm not saying I fully understand the depth of marine fish physiology, but the above quotes make sense. I don't see how the hyposalinity conditions we are talking about 14-16ppt, with a proper pH (temp, etc.) would prove fatal (as mentioned in the quote of your post). It reduces the energy expenditures of osmoregulation.

Mike - I thought I'd toss this in here, too: from "Fish Medicine" by Stoskopf, page 649

Cytolysis of tomonts occurs at salinities of 16 ppt or lower, and hyposalinity is suggested as an alternative method of treating C. irritans infestation of euryhaline species of fishes (Cheung et al., 1979a; Colorni, 1985).


Earthgoddess said:
I then asked how long At a reef meeting I was told to wait 2 weeks after the last parasite was seen because the low salinity only killed the parasite in the swimming stage before it host on the fish after dropping off and starting the cycle again so that is what I did and time will tell how well it has worked since I have now transferred the fish to there new home.

This may not have been long enough at hypo conditions to kill off the parasite, so don't get discouraged about hyposalinity treatments if the fish get ich at another point in time. However, there may be a chance that you were able to irradicate the parasite. Were you measuring your salinity with a hydrometer or refractometer? Hydrometers sometimes have enough of an error that hyposalinity wasn't truely reached. Also, how quickly did you raise the salinity to NSW levels? This should be done slowly over a course of a week, and the fish remain at that salinity for another week or two.

Here is a quote about length of treatment:

Treatment should continue for a minimum of three weeks after a therapeutic salinity level has been reached. Unlike most other forms of treatment for cryptocaryonosis, hyposalinity does not target the "free-swimming" or theront stage. Hyposalinity therapy works by interrupting the life cycle at the tomont stage. Tomonts are destroyed by hyposaline conditions, thus preventing re-infection.

From: News on the Warfront with Chryptocaryon irritans part 3 of 5

Earthgoddess said:
It is my understanding that if the parasite has nothing to host (fish) on then it will not survive so ideally the parasite will run its life cycle in a set period of time depending on temp etc. And then it will be gone then can add fish does that seem right?

IMO, yes. Just like a fallow display tank, after 6 weeks the QT should be free of any remaining parasites.

mmkeeper said:
In a QT using hyposalinity, how do you raise your ph?

You can use a buffer to raise your pH in the QT, which should be checked daily. I would add it slowly, so not to experience a big shift all at once. >>HERE<< is more information on pH buffering during hyposalinity treatment.
 
NaH2O said:
ScottT - I've seen Dr. Noga's name cited in some disease articles. That's really cool! If you get a chance to pick his brain, I'd love to hear what he says.
I have "picked his brain" as well as Dr. Colorni. Both fully supported hyposalinity as apposed to meds where it was a clear diagnosis of C. irritans. Dr. Colorni also found the three day transfer method best for them. Their (Israel's) only reason for abandoning hyposalinity being the high cost of fresh water.

A direct quote from Dr. Colorni...
In addition to being toxic to many species at concentrations considered therapeutic, copper has many undesirable side-effects on the fish health, not all of them visible in a short term. More importantly, use of copper against Cryptocaryon is perhaps more popular than effective.

Cheers
Steve
 
I'm not saying I fully understand the depth of marine fish physiology, but the above quotes make sense. I don't see how the hyposalinity conditions we are talking about 14-16ppt, with a proper pH (temp, etc.) would prove fatal (as mentioned in the quote of your post). It reduces the energy expenditures of osmoregulation.

I guess I more look at it from an evolutionary standpoint. If this were the case, why is it not more succesful for freshwater fish to live in marine environments and marine fish to live in freshwater environments? I mean, all this energy expenditure seems highly inefficient if in fact there were not other tradeoffs. Interestingly, it seems cortisol plays a role in this osmoregulation (which in many mammals, is THE stress hormone...not that there is any correlation, just an interesting aside). I feel like I am missing or have overlooked a huge piece of the puzzle.

I suppose as long as you don't flip the gradient, you will be fine.

Interesting...

Take er easy
Scott T.
 
Last edited:
NaH2O said:
I'm not saying I fully understand the depth of marine fish physiology, but the above quotes make sense. I don't see how the hyposalinity conditions we are talking about 14-16ppt, with a proper pH (temp, etc.) would prove fatal (as mentioned in the quote of your post). It reduces the energy expenditures of osmoregulation.

Good Discussion Nikki:D

I hear ya, I defiantely don't fully understand fish physiology either...:lol: And I would tend to agree...moderate hyposalinity probably isn't going to be fatal to the fish in the short term. On the flip side of that coin, however, I also fail to see how a hyposalinity situation ISN'T going to be stressfull to the marine fish, because you are messing with its basic cellular metabolisim and slowly dehydrating the fish. As Scott T. said...if a lower salinity situation is less stressfull on a marine fish, then why don't they seek out lower salinity areas to live? Only a handfull of fish are able to make the transition regularly between salt and fresh water...scats, some puffers, mono's, mollies, ect (brackish fish), salmon, and even a species of shark can do it (the Bull Shark), but other that, the large majority of fish cannot survive long in the other environment. Maybe I'm just having a "common sense" block here and need to be educated, but I just don't see how hyposalinity isn't stressfull on marine fish...:D

MikeS
 
I suppose it has to do with the salinity levels. We aren't taking the fish to S=0, but S=14-16. I would think a freshwater dip would be more stressful on a marine fish than hyposalinity, as they're still in a salty environment.
 
MikeS said:
Maybe I'm just having a "common sense" block here and need to be educated, but I just don't see how hyposalinity isn't stressfull on marine fish...:D
I think that statement might be more to the point. It's a long standing perception that I had trouble wrapping my brain around at first too. It wasn't until I started using the process and researching that I found the many myths of what it (low salinity) will or won't do in regards to fish health and longevity.

In the grand scheme of things it is only a short term treatment and not intended as a permanent living condition. As such, the (teleost) fish is well adapted to this change and will show a possitive result. At the very least, it offers us a safe means of treatment for those animals that are copper sensitive. Which brings me to the last point, of the medicated treaments, which of those that work (success rate 100%) do not have some risk associated with them?

Cheers
Steve
 
NaH2O said:
I suppose it has to do with the salinity levels. We aren't taking the fish to S=0, but S=14-16. I would think a freshwater dip would be more stressful on a marine fish than hyposalinity, as they're still in a salty environment.

Thats where my thinking lead me as well. As long as the concentration gradient does not get lower outside of the (marine) fish, then I suppose it would not be too detrimental to its normal physiological processes short term.

I think that statement might be more to the point. It's a long standing perception that I had trouble wrapping my brain around at first too. It wasn't until I started using the process and researching that I found the many myths of what it (low salinity) will or won't do in regards to fish health and longevity.

One thing I have learned is that my own intuition doesn't always follow that perscribed by parent nature/natural selection/The Creator/*insert belief here*. However, it seems I am constantly having to remind myself...

Good discussion!

Take er easy
Scott T.
 

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