Question about coraline alge

[cwcross]

Zul your levels of cal and alk are a little high for the salinity you are running. for that salinity you want the cal to be around the 350 mark and the alk around 2.5. As collin said its not the end of the world but it does make your corals work harder. I would not dose untill you can get your parameter a little lower, then dose to keep them leveled.
On the corraline I hate it to, if it werent for it I wouldnt have to ever clean the glass, lol but it does look so nice. On the urchins dont go that route, they will actually make the corraline get worse, when they eat it the corraline spores and when the urchin poops, all the spores are free to repopulate, trust me I had a small tribe of rock boring types, I was scraping corraline every few days, I took out a bunch of them and it has slowed alot more.


Mike

I agree the salinity is a little low. Still in a good range though. Will the corals still work harder? His alk is 440 with effectively balanced alk. This seems to be very near the ideal range of 420. I would suggest that as his Ca and Alk drop gradually, he can slowly up his salinity through water changing. At that point he should be in good shape.

However, as I said...other than salinity being slightly low things appear balanced with Ca and Alk on target.

PS. I will be out of town all next week with only spotty e-mail and internet service.

Have a good week...Collin

 

[mojoreef]

Collin in order for a coral cells to multiply they have to rid themselves of the calcium that is with in them, they do it by moving the calcium ions to the outer membrane and then it is drawn off from the outside of the cell by carbonate ions and attached to the new seed surface (ex: the skeliton) this process has takes an amount of the corals energy budget, when the levels are that much higher the coral can still do it but it takes up alot more of that budget. What ever amount of the budjet it takes is less for the coral has to use on more critical processes.
In Zuls case I was thinking that 440 at 1.023 is the equal to well over 500 35ppt, great for making skeliton tough on making the tissue to cover it.

have fun next week.

Mike

 

[zulreef]

Collin in order for a coral cells to multiply they have to rid themselves of the calcium that is with in them, they do it by moving the calcium ions to the outer membrane and then it is drawn off from the outside of the cell by carbonate ions and attached to the new seed surface (ex: the skeliton) this process has takes an amount of the corals energy budget, when the levels are that much higher the coral can still do it but it takes up alot more of that budget. What ever amount of the budjet it takes is less for the coral has to use on more critical processes.
In Zuls case I was thinking that 440 at 1.023 is the equal to well over 500 35ppt, great for making skeliton tough on making the tissue to cover it.

have fun next week.

Mike

Mike,

Ok I agree but I have not dosed for three days now the level was 440 at 1.0230 and now it is at 460 at 1.0235. Why is that?

Zul

 

[cwcross]

Collin in order for a coral cells to multiply they have to rid themselves of the calcium that is with in them, they do it by moving the calcium ions to the outer membrane and then it is drawn off from the outside of the cell by carbonate ions and attached to the new seed surface (ex: the skeliton) this process has takes an amount of the corals energy budget, when the levels are that much higher the coral can still do it but it takes up alot more of that budget. What ever amount of the budjet it takes is less for the coral has to use on more critical processes.

Ok, I understand that.

In Zuls case I was thinking that 440 at 1.023 is the equal to well over 500 35ppt, great for making skeliton tough on making the tissue to cover it.

have fun next week.

Mike

Corals depositing lime, or any chemical process, works by a thermodynamic property called free energy (which is basically "work" in the strict definition of the word). In this case of moving ions by corals across a concentration gradient, the "work" done, or free engergy difference, is related strictly to entropy, or more simply, the difference in Ca concentration between the inside of the coral and the outside of the coral. Hypothetically speaking I'll pull a number of of my neck and say that we can assume that inside the coral the calcium concentration is 400 ppm. If the outside water is at 440 ppm, then the concentration difference is 40 ppm net. The work done (or free energy difference) can be regarded as proportional to the Ca concentration difference. Thus if the outside water is at 500 ppm, the net difference would be 100 ppm and thus more work would have to be done to pump against this free energy barrier.

However, the concentration difference should be calculated from the actual measured concentration of 440 at 1.023 SG, not adjusted to 500 ppm based on a hypothetical SG of 1.025-6. The actual measured Ca is 440. As long as the salinity stays at 1.023 then the corals have very near the concentration they need as optimum (around 420 I think). Now if the salinity was indeed raised, and the Ca went to 500, then I would agree that the corals would be in an environment causing them to work harder to deposit lime.

That said, I am not sure the complication from having salinity at 1.023 rather than 1.025. 1.023 is on the low end of the spectrum but well inside the green range.

Regards...Collin

 

[cwcross]

Mike,

Ok I agree but I have not dosed for three days now the level was 440 at 1.0230 and now it is at 460 at 1.0235. Why is that?

Zul

This could very likely be random error of your measurements. If it is real, then likely some lime in your tank dissolved to raise things. Again, nothing to worry about...Collin

 

[zulreef]

Ok, I understand that.




Corals depositing lime, or any chemical process, works by a thermodynamic property called free energy (which is basically "work" in the strict definition of the word). In this case of moving ions by corals across a concentration gradient, the "work" done, or free engergy difference, is related strictly to entropy, or more simply, the difference in Ca concentration between the inside of the coral and the outside of the coral. Hypothetically speaking I'll pull a number of of my neck and say that we can assume that inside the coral the calcium concentration is 400 ppm. If the outside water is at 440 ppm, then the concentration difference is 40 ppm net. The work done (or free energy difference) can be regarded as proportional to the Ca concentration difference. Thus if the outside water is at 500 ppm, the net difference would be 100 ppm and thus more work would have to be done to pump against this free energy barrier.

However, the concentration difference should be calculated from the actual measured concentration of 440 at 1.023 SG, not adjusted to 500 ppm based on a hypothetical SG of 1.025-6. The actual measured Ca is 440. As long as the salinity stays at 1.023 then the corals have very near the concentration they need as optimum (around 420 I think). Now if the salinity was indeed raised, and the Ca went to 500, then I would agree that the corals would be in an environment causing them to work harder to deposit lime.

That said, I am not sure the complication from having salinity at 1.023 rather than 1.025. 1.023 is on the low end of the spectrum but well inside the green range.

Regards...Collin

Ok, it sounds like if I keep the salinity at 1.023 and water at 420-440 ppm that my tank should be OK. Thanks

Zul

 

[gobie]

See I Knew Some Thing Was Alil Askew

 

[MikeS]

Collin in order for a coral cells to multiply they have to rid themselves of the calcium that is with in them, they do it by moving the calcium ions to the outer membrane and then it is drawn off from the outside of the cell by carbonate ions and attached to the new seed surface (ex: the skeliton) this process has takes an amount of the corals energy budget, when the levels are that much higher the coral can still do it but it takes up alot more of that budget. What ever amount of the budjet it takes is less for the coral has to use on more critical processes.

I have read that there are indications that elevated Ca levels can inhibit coral tissue growth....is this the specific reason for that?

MikeS

 

[zulreef]

See I Knew Some Thing Was Alil Askew

Hey Gobie,

What does Alil Askew mean?

 

[zulreef]

Ok, I understand that.




Corals depositing lime, or any chemical process, works by a thermodynamic property called free energy (which is basically "work" in the strict definition of the word). In this case of moving ions by corals across a concentration gradient, the "work" done, or free engergy difference, is related strictly to entropy, or more simply, the difference in Ca concentration between the inside of the coral and the outside of the coral. Hypothetically speaking I'll pull a number of of my neck and say that we can assume that inside the coral the calcium concentration is 400 ppm. If the outside water is at 440 ppm, then the concentration difference is 40 ppm net. The work done (or free energy difference) can be regarded as proportional to the Ca concentration difference. Thus if the outside water is at 500 ppm, the net difference would be 100 ppm and thus more work would have to be done to pump against this free energy barrier.

However, the concentration difference should be calculated from the actual measured concentration of 440 at 1.023 SG, not adjusted to 500 ppm based on a hypothetical SG of 1.025-6. The actual measured Ca is 440. As long as the salinity stays at 1.023 then the corals have very near the concentration they need as optimum (around 420 I think). Now if the salinity was indeed raised, and the Ca went to 500, then I would agree that the corals would be in an environment causing them to work harder to deposit lime.

That said, I am not sure the complication from having salinity at 1.023 rather than 1.025. 1.023 is on the low end of the spectrum but well inside the green range.

Regards...Collin

Collin,

I don't know if I have a lime problem. Thanks

Zul

 

[hans1976]

Collin,

On this same topic. some of my coralline on my glass turned from pink to white (around 6 months after starting up the tank). My ph stays around 8.2, ca stays between 420 and 435, salinity stays 1.025-1.026.

Any thoughts why some of it changed?

Jeff

 

[cwcross]

Collin,

On this same topic. some of my coralline on my glass turned from pink to white (around 6 months after starting up the tank). My ph stays around 8.2, ca stays between 420 and 435, salinity stays 1.025-1.026.

Any thoughts why some of it changed?

Jeff

Just returned from Philly last night.

My corraline does this too. It kind of waxes and wanes but the overall growth always trends up on the back glass. I'd say my back glass is like 15-20% covered by now. As long as it is still growing on average you should be OK.

 

[wrightme43]

When you do your water changes is it exposed to air? If I do a large water change any coraline exposed to air for more than about 15 mins seems to bleach out. I solved that problem by spashing water on the Coraline when ever I have to work in the tank for a long time with it partially drained. HTH Steve

 

[mojoreef]

Hypothetically speaking I'll pull a number of of my neck and say that we can assume that inside the coral the calcium concentration is 400 ppm. If the outside water is at 440 ppm, then the concentration difference is 40 ppm net. The work done (or free energy difference) can be regarded as proportional to the Ca concentration difference. Thus if the outside water is at 500 ppm, the net difference would be 100 ppm and thus more work would have to be done to pump against this free energy barrier.

Ok but the coral must remove all calcium from with in its cell, the calcium level outside the coral is the same as with in. So in Zul's case the calcium level that the coral would be used to would be around 350, if zuls calcium is 500 then the coral has to work 30% harder to do the job then if it was at a more normal NSW level?? Are we apple and oranging again
Now when you start adding how the coral uses carbonate and magnesium to draw out the calcium and to place the skelitons in locations that it desires, then you can have a very complex situation. One that would take even more energy to do the same job.


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

I have read that there are indications that elevated Ca levels can inhibit coral tissue growth....is this the specific reason for that?

Mike its pretty simple, the corals cells cannot divide with calcium present, that is why the move the calcium ions to the membrane to be removed and deposited on the skeliton. Just look at the skeliton as if it were a giant waste pile (its alot more complicated then that but you get the idea). Also its not that it will inhibit as much as it will make the coral use up energy tha it doesnt really have to spare, kinda like making it ride o the edge to much


Mike

 

[cwcross]

Ok but the coral must remove all calcium from with in its cell, the calcium level outside the coral is the same as with in. So in Zul's case the calcium level that the coral would be used to would be around 350, if zuls calcium is 500 then the coral has to work 30% harder to do the job then if it was at a more normal NSW level?? Are we apple and oranging again
Now when you start adding how the coral uses carbonate and magnesium to draw out the calcium and to place the skelitons in locations that it desires, then you can have a very complex situation. One that would take even more energy to do the same job.


Mike

I think we are basically on the same page. Corals are believed to work harder against more calcium. I'm not seeing where you are getting the 350 from though?

What I am trying to say is that it is the actual measured concentrations of things in the water that impact the coral, not adjusted to a hypothetical SG.

If measured calcium and alk are at 440 and balanced, it is in a good range. Even if SG is only 1.023. Better to have the SG at 1.026 with Ca 440 and balanced alk, but as far as Ca goes...440 is good.

As a side bar, I have read that elevated alk will cause more growth, whereas Ca will not and indeed is wasteful of energy as you are saying.

 

[mojoreef]

I think we are basically on the same page. Corals are believed to work harder against more calcium. I'm not seeing where you are getting the 350 from though?

If a coral come from water that is at a salinity of 1.023, the calcium level for that salinity of water is at 350. Stay with me and I will show how it pertains.

What I am trying to say is that it is the actual measured concentrations of things in the water that impact the coral, not adjusted to a hypothetical SG.If measured calcium and alk are at 440 and balanced, it is in a good range. Even if SG is only 1.023. Better to have the SG at 1.026 with Ca 440 and balanced alk, but as far as Ca goes...440 is good.

yes I gotcha, 440 is 440 right??

As a side bar, I have read that elevated alk will cause more growth, whereas Ca will not and indeed is wasteful of energy as you are saying.

Oh yea, and it even goes deeper Collin just a facinating subject. The are alot smarter and well developed then most folks realise. They have the ability to direct where they want the calcium to be deposited and not in just one stage but at many. Magnesium is one of the controls in doing this, other nutrient can be used also. Thier is a reason a coral grows in the fashion that it does and how it does that in very neat.
What I am trying to get at with the elevated calcium level even though it is still in balance with alkalinity is that thier is alot more then just the removal and depositing of calcium carbonate. Other elements take part in the process also, along with nutirents, oxygen and so on. Even the calcium carbonate that is produced is not the same through out the coral (fiberious or mass) and it is produced differently at different times of the day. SO when a person has an elevated calcium level they cant just compensate with the balanced ammount of alk to make up for it, thier are alot more dynamics involved.
When keeping these skeliton forming corals it is best to keep them in a salinity that they have evolved in and know what and how to deal with the various elements, and also to keep the element level as close as you can to NSW levels at that salinty.


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Hey Collin I thought I would throw up an interest link for ya

http://www.whoi.edu/GG/science/people/acohen/images/chemistry1.pdf

http://www.cameca.fr/doc_en_pdf/mg_..._grl31_2004.pdf


hope you like em

Mike

 

[MikeS]

Mike its pretty simple, the corals cells cannot divide with calcium present, that is why the move the calcium ions to the membrane to be removed and deposited on the skeliton. Just look at the skeliton as if it were a giant waste pile (its alot more complicated then that but you get the idea). Also its not that it will inhibit as much as it will make the coral use up energy tha it doesnt really have to spare, kinda like making it ride o the edge to much


Mike

Gotcha....ok, now is there a specific ppm Ca level or range that this begins to become a problem, or does it tend to occur at any Ca level that is substantialy in excess compared to a particular salinity? (ie 410ppm Ca in a 31ppt (1.023) salinity environment)

MikeS

 

[NaH2O]

MikeS - I think any Ca value that is an excess at a particular salinity will be stressful on the corals. So if you want to keep your salinity at a reduced value, then you would need to also have lower Calcium that is in line with that particular salinity. Make sense? Find the percent difference between the salinities and the same percent should be the difference between the calcium level. I'm not sure how much more stressful a reduced salinity environment would be on corals. As Mike/mojo stated, they (the corals) have adapted to a particular environment over a long time. I don't know how easy it is for them to be tossed in a reduced salinity environment with elevated calcium levels. So it isn't so much about increasing Ca levels (as some may think), but more about keeping the Calcium level at the correct value. Supplement to keep it there, not elevate it. If I have this wrong, someone please correct me.

Here are a couple of links. Hope some find them helpful:

The Chemical and Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification by RH-F
Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by RH-F. This one gives values for Typical Ocean Surfaces.