Question on flow, please help.

[Ichthys]

I have a question about flow. I want to maximize the flow reaching 6 separate 3/4 inch closed loop outlets at the bottom of a 150 gallon tank. The pump is a dolphin Ampmaster 3000/4000 and has 2 inch inlet and outlet. I will be coming out of the tank over the top with 2 inch pvc pipe. The return to the tank will need to transition from the 2 inch at the pump to 3/4 locline. I have several options and want opinions on what would be best.

1) Go 2 inch to the bottom of the tank and then use a manifold to split into 6 separate pipes going to 6 outlets
2) Go 2 inch to the bottom of the tank and then do a single 3/4 inch loop all the way around the bottom with 6 outlets in the one pipe.
3) Split the 2 inch into 3 separate 1 inch pipes right after the pump and take the 3 1 inch pipes to the bottom and then tee each one.
4) Split the 2 inch into 6 separate 3/4 inch pipes right after the pump and take all six pipes over the top and to the bottom.

At the heart of this question is this. Is there a noticeable reduction in flow in making the transition from 2 inch to multiple 3/4 inch closer to the pump, or closer to the outlets. I have heard it recommended each way.

Thanks

 

[Peppie]

IMO it is easier to hide one or two pipes than it is to hide much more.
I am pretty sure a reduction is a reduction. (on the outlet side) no matter where it occurred alone the line.

BTW, give me a call when you can, regarding your hood.

 

[trido]

I agree with Peppie. Option one is the route I'd go with

 

[kpiotrowski]

yep option one here too.

 

[Ichthys]

OK, so going over the top with 2 inch pipe then down to the bottom a 90 and into this

Should work sweet. Peppie had a good idea, make the lines that are closest to the manifold 3/4 instead of 1" which will allow a more even distribution of the flow among the 6 outlets.

 

[TJL]

Not to openly disagree with my man Peppie but, in actuality the ones closer to the end will have the greatest pressure. The only way to have them equal is to make a pressure-balance loop. If you go from 2" to a 2x1x1 T-fitting so to form a 1" pressure balanced loop with 3/4" outlets to Loc-Line. I spent many years as a Proffessional Designer specializing in High-End Shower systems.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Peppie]

Not to openly disagree with my man Peppie but, in actuality the ones closer to the end will have the greatest pressure. The only way to have them equal is to make a pressure-balance loop. If you go from 2" to a 2x1x1 T-fitting so to form a 1" pressure balanced loop with 3/4" outlets to Loc-Line. I spent many years as a Proffessional Designer specializing in High-End Shower systems.

Cheers, Todd

Todd,
I need to understand why this is so,
My thought is. If I have a 2'' line that is 12'' long, the first outlet port will be port "A", 2nd port "B", 3rd "C" , 4th "D" , 5th "E". All ports are 1''.
So the force and amount of water is going to be greater at port "E" than at port "A"??

 

[pandora32]

The water and pressure is, as a rude example, air. It will find the easiest way out. Take your air tools. You build a multi port air manifold at different areas in your shop. You turn on the compressor and presto, air all over. You go and use your tool at the first port. Works great. So you progressively move down the line, realizing that by the time you get to the last port, you dont have enough air pressure to run you tool. Then you remember, VALVES to close and open the ports to get the pressure down to the end.
If it was me, i would run the 2" pipe from the pump up to a manifold mounted in the stand with a valve on each line. Then finish it off as tjl said above. This way, you can control each pipe individually for pressure or whatever. Just my 2¢…was a marine pipefitter for 10 1/2 years.

 

[vlangel]

My 90 gallon had a manifold just like Pandora described and it worked very well. It was nice controlling the pressure of each line as the line with the chiller needed more flow than the line with the UV. If I could have fit that manifold in the cabinet of my 36 gallon I would have. Just remember that each tweak of a valve changes the sump height but that nice too if say your protein skimmer is in the sump.

 

[pandora32]

Once you get it dialed in where you want it, the water level is easy, take some out or put some in...lol

 

[vlangel]

True, once I dialed it in I never changed it again except it would ever so slightly change on its own, I guess due to vibration. It was very slight.

 

[Skimmy]

a 150g? with all that plumbing in it??
uuugghh... i dont know how you guys can look at,
or deal with the maintenance on those closed loop manifolds..
first off they calcify and must be removed and cleaned every 1 or 2 years,
and you will have to drain your whole tank to do it...
second they are completely unsightly when compared to a couple tunze powerheads
hidden behind the rockwork, set up in a laminar gyre..
third, the tiny, unnatural nozzel outlets are not nearly as benificial to corals
as the wide outlet gentle flow of tunze/vortec/hydor powerheads.
if it was me, i would seal up those bulkheads on the bottom of your tank
(a horrible place for bulkheads) and opt for the powerheads i mentioned.

just my 2 cents

 

[Ichthys]

a 150g? with all that plumbing in it??
uuugghh... i dont know how you guys can look at,

Not sure what "all that plumbing" you are referring to, the only thing in view will be a piece of black 2 inch pipe which will blend perfectly with the black background. The clutter of unsightly stuff in your tank is exactly why I DONT want to use powerheads. All those electrical cords and pumps taking up room.. if you go Vortech then you have a big motor on the outside of your glass with an attached electrical cord. If you go Tunze or Hydor you have not only a largish pump in the tank but the power cord as well. 1 piece of unobtrusive black pipe on the back wall behind the rock work is much less unsightly. I have a tank to look at my corals and fish, not to look at a bunch of power cords and pumps.
just my 2 cents

 

[Ichthys]

Not to openly disagree with my man Peppie but, in actuality the ones closer to the end will have the greatest pressure. The only way to have them equal is to make a pressure-balance loop. If you go from 2" to a 2x1x1 T-fitting so to form a 1" pressure balanced loop with 3/4" outlets to Loc-Line. I spent many years as a Proffessional Designer specializing in High-End Shower systems.

Cheers, Todd

First, let me say I dont know the answers, hence the question and discussion, I had to draw pictures lol to see if I understand. So in my diagram, you are saying that in the top picture all outlets A-F have the same flow? And in the bottom picture outlets A and D have the greatest flow? That seems counterintuitive.

 

[kpiotrowski]

water pressure is like electricty...its going to take the quickest way out is the way I see it. so I am with c and f although negligable. the lenth of the manifold means everything too. picture the manifold being 10 feet long?

 

[pandora32]

Yup. Just like kipiotrowski said, c and f are goin to be the highest flow. When i was working in the shipyards, me and an electrician were talking. We realized that there isnt any differance between water and electicity in flow. Both find the quickest, easiest way out. I used the shop as an example cuz its easy to picture in your head. Well for me anyways...lol

 

[TJL]

In my experience with doing high-end shower systems ie; multiple shower heads with body jets etc... without doing a pressure balance loop the end fixture had the strongest flow. In residential plumbing each fixture is regulated to so many GPM so as long as combined fixtures did not exceed valves capacity the incoming water pressure plus the back pressure was greatest at end of line. In a very long run such as sprinkler systems and shop airlines it gets weaker with length and typically don't have greater supply than demand. Ididn't go back to read what kind of GPH the pump has but typical closed loops are very high flow and end up with some back pressure if reduced down to several ports with nozzled ends in which case a pressure balance loop will equalize. I should also take a look at capacity of overflow to handle volume needed or could you restate it for us.

Cheers, Todd

 

[pandora32]

In my experience with doing high-end shower systems ie; multiple shower heads with body jets etc... without doing a pressure balance loop the end fixture had the strongest flow. In residential plumbing each fixture is regulated to so many GPM so as long as combined fixtures did not exceed valves capacity the incoming water pressure plus the back pressure was greatest at end of line. In a very long run such as sprinkler systems and shop airlines it gets weaker with length and typically don't have greater supply than demand. Ididn't go back to read what kind of GPH the pump has but typical closed loops are very high flow and end up with some back pressure if reduced down to several ports with nozzled ends in which case a pressure balance loop will equalize. I should also take a look at capacity of overflow to handle volume needed or could you restate it for us.

Cheers, Todd

Awww...so true...lol. Sorry. Misread what you said. I would still go with a manifold personally.

 

[Spinner]

I say manifold/manifold's too! They scare some people but then again thats why they made VOLKSWAGENS
Just remove one pump and complete the circle.

 

[Ichthys]

Hey Spinner, how do you like your Blowholes? I was going to go with a Blowhole 1450 for my return but am now leaning towards a Waveline DC5000 or, if i can wait till April a Diablo DC5500. I love the color on all your plumbing, but there is one thing i am curious about. Why the Mace?