Re-Aquascaping with a DSB

[MikeS]

Mike S- I used to belive the same things you posted. In practice however, Nitrates stay totally undectable. I use high flow through mine, and my sand stays very very clean. I can give it a furious stirring and not see the gross clouds of filth that used to rise up out of the sand on my earlier DSB tanks.

"used to" being the key phrase there....Honestly Luke, how long have you been using UGF's? Personally, I had them for 10+ years in numerous tanks before giving up on them on the advice of several more advanced marine tank keepers...I've had UGF free setups of numerous types for another 10+ years, and I can honestly say they are much more problem free than the UGF...and I bet the vast majority of marine hobbyists out there with 20+ years experience will echo my response.

I was worried my nitrates would escalate and all sorts of things, the reality is the tank has never been more stable at holding undectable nutrient levels reguardless of how much I over feed.

Well...there could be many reasons for this. It is dependent on several varibles...ie bioload, maintenance, export, ect. You use a chaeto fuge...odds are the higher levels of nitrate you are seeing could be soaked up by your macros...all fine and good, unless your macro die and/or you hit that critical nutrient level in your substrate where you see a nutrient spike your system can no longer handle...which BTW was the exact reason I gave up UGF's....I've seen that spike...sometimes it takes a while to get there, but it will...

So, I see very clean sand full of fauna through out the entire layer rather than just the top (do to O2 presence making life possible everywhere in the sand.) I see a very stable enviroment that never registers dectable nutrients. Perhaps it requires the chaetomorpha combo to make them work, I dont know, I havent tried one with out it.

Again, how long have you been using a UGF? And bear in mind you have a system in place to deal with nitrate...granted, an unstable, bioloically based system, but a system nonetheless...

Before useing them I would have replied just like your above post, but after useing them...I really struggle to see the downside.

Short term, yes, they work wonderfully, just like a wet/dry...probelm comes in the long term when the compacted detritus reaches a critical mass...then stand by...

MikeS

 

[ethanriley]

Kimo,

While Luke and Mike debate the use of RFUGF you may want to take a look at this thread in the advance forum:

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13312

Boomer PaulB and quite a few others weigh in on this idea. I think Barry is even setting up an experiment to further the concept? Sorry to hijack but you may want to take a look as should Mike and Luke

 

[liveforphysics]

Yeah, Mike, you are welcome to come over and stir the sand all you want. I certianly dont see anything accumulateing. The rocks also look extremely clean, and never require any attention to detritus removal. I dont skim, I dont waterchange, I overfeed big time.

But, I'm not interested in going round and round with this again, I know what I do(and dont do) to my tanks, and I couldnt ask for more out of them. I absoultly belive you that your experience went differntly, there are a lot of variable that could influence that. I think a low flow UGF is a bad thing, I think a low flow RUGF is a good thing, or at least a better thing that just a DSB. I also like very high flow versions of either options, which seems to be a really rare thing for people to try, and it seems the ones that do try it have nitrate problems. I think the combo of the chaeto to keep the nitrate zero'd out with the high flow UGF/RUGF likely works like a team together.

Anyways, I was just trying to sugest something for this guy that might give him a more stable tank. It would be a lot of work, he would have to pull all the sand out, wash all the sand, install the UGF, add the sand back. Its a chore for sure, but he wouldnt have to be concerned about doing things like re-arangeing his rocks anymore afterwards because the sand would be safe to disturb. No biggy, its not for everybody, it was just a sugestion, I know it works great for me, and I try to share things that I see working well with others.

 

[liveforphysics]

ethanriley- Yeah, i really liked that thread. It goes beyond the basic "its a nitrate factory" BS that everybody says, and actualy gets into some good stuff.

I think the end conclusion was something like going high flow RUGF was the best option available for having a DSB.

 

[MikeS]

Yeah, Mike, you are welcome to come over and stir the sand all you want. I certianly dont see anything accumulateing. The rocks also look extremely clean, and never require any attention to detritus removal.

Just because you can't see it, that doesn't mean it isn't there. When I moved my tank 6 months ago, I removed a 5 year old DSB in the process. The sand was suprisingly clean, very white and detritus "free"...no foul smells, yet I was still dealing with a major nutrient flux in the tank, one that didn't follow once I lost the sandbed...just becasue you can't visibly see the nasties doesn't mean they are not present...

I dont skim, I dont waterchange, I overfeed big time.

Same as above, how long have you been doing this?

But, I'm not interested in going round and round with this again, I know what I do(and dont do) to my tanks, and I couldnt ask for more out of them. I absoultly belive you that your experience went differntly, there are a lot of variable that could influence that. I think a low flow UGF is a bad thing, I think a low flow RUGF is a good thing, or at least a better thing that just a DSB. I also like very high flow versions of either options, which seems to be a really rare thing for people to try, and it seems the ones that do try it have nitrate problems. I think the combo of the chaeto to keep the nitrate zero'd out with the high flow UGF/RUGF likely works like a team together.

Anyways, I was just trying to sugest something for this guy that might give him a more stable tank. It would be a lot of work, he would have to pull all the sand out, wash all the sand, install the UGF, add the sand back. Its a chore for sure, but he wouldnt have to be concerned about doing things like re-arangeing his rocks anymore afterwards because the sand would be safe to disturb. No biggy, its not for everybody, it was just a sugestion, I know it works great for me, and I try to share things that I see working well with others.

I'm glad your system is working out well for you. I hope that for all reefkeepers no matter what approach they take. I don't however, agree with the recommendation you made to use a UGF based solely on your personal experience with them. You never answered how long you have had one, but I imagine your experience with them is pretty limited. The UGF was abandoned a long time ago by the marine community in general, and for good reason. Sure, there are exceptions, there always will be.

I hope this post doesn't come off the wrong way. I'm not bashing you for having a different approach or viewpoint. Nor am I bashing you for having a different opinion than I do. This hobby is constantly evolving and growing, and new ideas often pan out. I'm all for it. What however concerns me is advocating a system, idea, product, ect that you have only limited experience with, not qualifying it by stating your experience with them is limited, and omitting the potential downsides to said system.

MikeS

 

[Maxx]

Mike, you are welcome to come over and stir the sand all you want. I certianly dont see anything accumulateing. The rocks also look extremely clean, and never require any attention to detritus removal. I dont skim, I dont waterchange, I overfeed big time.

I've asked before, and gotten no response from you, but I'm guessing you just didnt see my post.....

I'd love to see pics of this tank. If for no other reason to see how things appear after all the talking your doing about it. No offense intended, but the proof is in the pudding, otherwise its just words on a screen....

Could you post up a full tank shot taken with in the last month?

Nick

 

[ScottT1980]

I will echo what mojo and Nikki said earlier in the thread. We just did this about 2 weeks ago and laziness got the best of us. Before removing coral and livestock, we just started pulling rock (along with its attached coral). A lot of coral and livestock were exposed to some nasty stuff. The softies were fine, but we ended up bleaching a couple of nice SPS colonies and had a cuke die on us (not to say it was a result of the high nutrients, but a good possibility). Obviously, a dead cuke in a tank further perpetuated the nutrient issues. We did some serious water changes and things seemed to stabilize...

As for the other issue... I still haven't seen a response to how long your tank has been established liveforphysics? Just curious, as that would make a big difference. Also, as previously mentioned, I remeber seeing a refugium on your tank. Undoubtedly that handles nitrates fairly well. I had a plenum with a very large and diverse refugium an never once recorded nitrates greater than 0. However, I would never say that this was a result of the plenum. I am not debating whether an UGF would work, but I do think think top poster would need to do a good deal of research prior to taking that leap.

Take er easy
Scott T.

 

[steve-s]

I dont skim, I dont waterchange, I overfeed big time.

Same as above, how long have you been doing this?

I keep seeing this questioned go unanswered, how old is the set up? IME, the biggest limiting factor in a system like this other than bioload/waste input is time.

Cheers
Steve

 

[NaH2O]

Nikki- What is your reason for not likeing UGFs? And perhaps something a little deeper than the typical 'nitrate factory' BS would be good to hear. Maybe even writing your own thoughts rather than links would be neat to. I've read plenty of links bashing them, but I'm interested on why you personally dont like them.

"Maybe even writing your own thoughts rather than links would be neat to"....Is that a nice way of bashing my posting style? I provide links so folks can make up their own minds based on information provided. That is a big thing for me, I want people to understand what they are doing, or using, so they can make a decision and know what to expect from that decision. It also encourages folks to do more reading on the subject, or learn something more than what I may be able to provide.

There are alot of ways to set-up a tank. Skimmers are a great method of exportation of detritus/organics and waste matter. I choose this method of exportation and feel good about that choice, instead of locking things up biologically and depending on them when they are in a constant state of flux. You chose the opposite of me. With RFUGF, even when filtering the water, you will get organics taken to the bottom of the substraight, where bacterial biofilms form, slow and/or block flow, and eventually lead to a plugging problem. MikeS made some good points, which I don't feel like repeating. IMO, advancements have been made in the hobby since UGF, so I choose to go the route of exporting my organics with a skimmer. You don't do it that way...that's fine with me, however, there is a lot to understand when looking at a RFUGF. The topic in the advanced forum shows just how complex it is.

 

[liveforphysics]

Maxx- you wanted some pics, I took these this morning just for you. Note there is a lot of salt creep and stuff on the outside of the glass, and damn coraline on the inside. I dont clean my glass on either side, at least until the coraline builds until you cant see diddly anymore. I tried to get a good detail full front view, but my photo skills and camera are an approprately matched team So, i took a close up of each side to get a little detail.

Nikki~ Not being offensive, its just seems I rarely hear your own voice, dispite a zillion posts I still dont feel like I know you, or your own feelings on things. That makes me sad because I would like to.

Its gets a little old to read 100's of pages and articles and lectures from every LFS owner and enthusist about how you cant have a high flow UGF in a reef tank, WHILE you are doing it allready and loveing the results.

I cant blame them without being hypocritical though, as nothing mentioned hasnt come out of my own mouth just a couple years back when people would ask me what I thought of them.

My whole point here, was if you have a UGF, you can re-arange the tank all you want, or stir the sand up or whatever floats your boat with no danger. The sand also appears to be very much cleaner than before when i just had DSB/plenums, and the available real estate for the macro fauna is just HUGE due to oxygenated areas through most all of the substrate rather than just the top 1" or so.

I dig them, it seems you guys dont, thats fine, nobody is making you use them.

 

[NaH2O]

Nikki~ Not being offensive, its just seems I rarely hear your own voice, dispite a zillion posts I still dont feel like I know you, or your own feelings on things. That makes me sad because I would like to.

Sorry you feel that way...I've been told quite the opposite on many occasions via PMs and on boards....the links are very helpful, so I continue to use them. I feel I'm pretty true to who I am in my posts. I think most folks on the site that have come to know me on a personal level can vouch for that. I remember a thread on zooxanthellae injection, where I was very true to myself in my thoughts, and provided links as extra information if the thread starter was interested (hope you remember the thread, as well). I don't see any fault in the way I post. I want people to make their own decisions on and be able to learn more than (in some instances) what I can offer them in my understandings, abilities, and opinions.

Its gets a little old to read 100's of pages and articles and lectures from every LFS owner and enthusist about how you cant have a high flow UGF in a reef tank, WHILE you are doing it allready and loveing the results.

I'm curious as to how long your UGF has been in place? Also, as was mentioned before, your system is dependent on more than just the UGF...you have a ton of chaeto at work...but I won't link to that again .

 

[Krish]

Luke...Your tank looks different from the previous photos you have here on RF. A lot more color and coraline...I was just curious how in the world do you stir that bed with all that rock in there? It almost looks like there is no free space of substrate without rock on top of it! Also, how long has this one been up now? Like I've said, I see a difference in color (looks brighter) compared to the old photos, and it almost looks like you added more LR. Did you?

Sorry Kimo for the hijack...Seems this thread has gone a little do west

 

[liveforphysics]

Nikki- Yes, I definately remember that thread, and I appreciated the links and your own input. I think the problem must be on my end here, I am likely just reading the links and things and not associateing any memory of who linked me to them.


Krish- Yes, that plauge of coraline has been the bane of my tanks. I recently heard of something called "coraline diesese", and if it really only targets and kills coraline, I am going to do my best to try to get some of it. My tanks dont grow any nuscence algae (I actually have snails STARVE to death, I feel bad for them), so if it wasnt for that evil mofo Mr. Coraline I wouldnt have to waste my time scraping that glass every couple months.

Its fairly full, you might be able to tell from the kinda chaotic placment of things that I dont really aquascape. I just pull a few big rocks out if i need room to dork around with the sand, and ploop them back in however they fit when I'm done.

I just noticed I left the actinics on when I took the photos, I must have been sleepy. I can take some new ones with no actinics if you would like, but it will have to wait untill I get home again.

 

[Kimo]

Sorry Kimo for the hijack...Seems this thread has gone a little do west

Oh, its no problem, I like a good civil discussion.

BTW, to prevent corraline, just swipe a magnet cleaner over all the glass once a day. That prevents it from taking hold, it's easier to remove when it's REALLY little.

I think the RUGF idea is interesting, and I am glad it works for some, I just don't want to deal with it. I like my DSB (not so deep anymore) and probably won't switch soon. I dislike the look of bare bottom tanks, even with starboard. I could go for SSB, but I think my DSB has saved my butt since I have been lazy with my husbandry.

Jamie

 

[jlehigh]

Thank for posting pics Luke, I think that helps.

I need to point out you arent running a DSB at all. DSB = Deep sand bed and what I am seeing is the shallow rubble/crushed coral bed. Larger substrate like what I see in your tank differs from fine substrate deep sand beds that are a minumum of 4 inches deep.. Your posts led me to believe you were running a DSB and UGF, but maybe I wasnt reading closely enough??

I'm with you on the sand Kimo.. I ran a UGF on fresh water tanks for years and remember having to pull them completely out to clean all of the settled crap all the time.. I run a bare-bottom and drool over the thought of having nice fine substrate but it wouldnt work with the flow design of my tank nor my filtration practices.

Keep us posted on how this goes, and get on that husbandry

 

[liveforphysics]

Kimo- Exellent response, and I respect your choice to not use a UGF. It was just a suggestion. I am glad you appreciate the buffer of saftey that your sand bed provides. I think you will also notice that your rock gets disolved much more slowly when running a DSB as well, perticularly if you use crushed coral for a substrate, as the substrate bares the brunte of the buffering/disolveing loads due to the massive surface area.

I could do the magnet thing, and I apprecaite the tip, but I dont want tanks with maintence beyond topping off and feeding. I do set aside a fair amount of time to spend with my tanks, but I do not wish to spend my time doing any maintence, I much more enjoy fragging things and propagateing things to ensure the aquariums pay for themselves. I also leave my tanks unattended often for a week or more at a time, and I think that would let the coraline get a grip on things while I was away.

Keep us posted on how your rock remodeling goes, I know everybody is hopeing for the best!

-Luke

 

[liveforphysics]

Jleigh- Sorry if I misslead you, I didnt intend to. What would be the best name for it, its about 2" deep of crushed coral, I dont know if thats considdered a SSB, or SB, or what the proper nomenclature would be.

In my early freshwater days, I definately remember finding some really gross stuff under the UGFs. Just sick stuff that made you wana puke. Fortunately, unlike freshwater, saltwater has a whole really cool range of animals that go to town on this sort of stuff, or at least thats my best guess at why it always looks so clean when I poke around to check.

 

[Maxx]

Maxx- you wanted some pics, I took these this morning just for you. Note there is a lot of salt creep and stuff on the outside of the glass, and damn coraline on the inside. I dont clean my glass on either side, at least until the coraline builds until you cant see diddly anymore. I tried to get a good detail full front view, but my photo skills and camera are an approprately matched team So, i took a close up of each side to get a little detail.

Thanks for posting pics Luke. I see alot of your rock in the tank is a bright white, is it new? I also notice your tank is predominantly softies and LPS, with several SPS frags as well. Your husbandry is ideal for softies and LPS, but hard on SPS...how log have you had the SPS and how are they doing in your system?

Nick

 

[liveforphysics]

Yes, much of that bright rock came back with me in my checked luggage around christmas time Its stayed very white and bright looking in my tanks, its getting attacked by pink coraline, and I hope I can still stand to look at it when its all pink.

Pociliapora and a yellowy green slimer frag that started out tiny have been in there for 6months or so and showed exellent growth. The other sps types have been in for a little less than 2 months. In that time I have noticed measureable growth, and the colors just look great. They get lots of natural foods from the high fauna population in the tank, and I think they like that.

If you wana check them out in person, you are welcome to, or you can stick any frag in there you like and check how the color and growth compairs in a couple months. I am always open to any experiments.

If you have any more questions, ask away.

 

[NaH2O]

I agree on the substraight not being a DSB, but a crushed coral bed.....maybe we can coin a new phrase... DCCB (deep crushed coral bed), if it's 4" or deeper. Still curious as to how long you've had the UGF installed?