Refugiums and sumps, what do they do for your system?

[ac7av]

What does your refugium/sump do for you? How does it benefit your entire eco system?

I would like to find out what you think yours is doing for you system and what you have in the way of equipment and materials in order to accomplish the goal?

What’s the goal? I think the goal ultimately is to clean the water of nutrients, provide a safe haven for debris removal creatures that would normally be fish food or coral food.

Many plants are used in that area of the system. From what I’ve read, it seems most people employ a number of different macro algae in the refugium to export nutrients. These algae also provide a breeding ground for many of the debris eaters we also use to break down waist even further.

Lots of people also use deep sand beds that help to brake down nutrients in the water, provide a safe haven for pods, worms, and shrimp that all play a part in breaking down debris and eating nuisance algae floating in the water column.

Mechanical and chemical methods are also used to purify and clean the water even further. The use of protein skimmers, activated charcoal, water changes, and filter socks are some of the more common items and methods used in the system.

What is important to you in your system? Do you expect your refugium/sump to provide anything beneficial to your system aside from the clean water? Do you think of the refugium as a food source for the main tank? If so what kind of food and how does it get into your tank? If you feed macro algae from your fuge to fish in the display tank, doesn’t that put all the nutrients you are trying to get out the tank, back in to the tank, or is there something else that happens to the absorbed nutrients?

 

[Chichas01]

Firts I would say that the 2 are not the same. Not sure if that is what you are thinking or implying so forgive me if I misunderstand anything
They can have similar purposes (waste processing) but are really 2 different systems even though your refugium can sometimes be a part of your sump system.
Sump Benefits:

• increases water volume to over all system
• great place to store heater, skimmer, media reactors, and other unsightly equipment I don't want in or on my tank
• makes water changes a breeze and does not freak out my fish as bad during cleanings
• traps lots of detritus that I can then remove during cleanings
• great place to store LR that I don't want or have room for in the display

Refugium benefits:

• also adds to over all system volume
• safe haven for pods, worms, shrimp and other critters to reproduce and feed my system and aid in detritus removal. They end up in the display just fine after passing through my return pump. I have even see smal shrimp in my carbon reactor.
• provides a DSB for nitrate reduction and habtiat for critters that like DSB's
• place for my macro's to grow outside of my display
• allows any algae I don't want in the display to grow as much as it can and use up the nutrients
• almost as fun if not more to watch what's going on in there as my display tank

 

[bigblue141]

Firts I would say that the 2 are not the same. Not sure if that is what you are thinking or implying so forgive me if I misunderstand anything
They can have similar purposes (waste processing) but are really 2 different systems even though your refugium can sometimes be a part of your sump system.
Sump Benefits:

• increases water volume to over all system
• great place to store heater, skimmer, media reactors, and other unsightly equipment I don't want in or on my tank
• makes water changes a breeze and does not freak out my fish as bad during cleanings
• traps lots of detritus that I can then remove during cleanings
• great place to store LR that I don't want or have room for in the display

Refugium benefits:

• also adds to over all system volume
• safe haven for pods, worms, shrimp and other critters to reproduce and feed my system and aid in detritus removal. They end up in the display just fine after passing through my return pump. I have even see smal shrimp in my carbon reactor.
• provides a DSB for nitrate reduction and habtiat for critters that like DSB's
• place for my macro's to grow outside of my display
• allows any algae I don't want in the display to grow as much as it can and use up the nutrients
• almost as fun if not more to watch what's going on in there as my display tank

You took up all the reasons in one reply

 

[Chichas01]

sorry dude :lol:
stay tuned, won't be long before someone chimes in and disagrees :lol:

 

[tat2z_21]

I disagree. I do not know too what but I disagree.

 

[ac7av]

With few exceptions a refrugium would almost always be used along with a sump. That why I kind of consider them the same component in my system. In the sump is usually where I think most people use more mechanical means of cleaning the water.

What I’m more interested in exploring is to what extent the fuge impacts the display aside from the clean water. Pods, worms and macros can all be considered food for your tank but do you ever think of the needs of the fuge or do you look at it as the fuge is a need for the tank? If the fuge is the nutrient export for the tank then how does it benefit the tank allowing the critters to enter the tank from the fuge, or feeding macros from the fuge to the tank fish?

What benefits does the fuge provide the corals and filter feeders in the tank? Are you trying to grow phytoplankton or zooplankton for the purposes of feeding your corals and clams and other filter feeders in the main tank? If so how is this done?

Do you ever think about feeding the fuge? Refugium animals need foods just like any other animal, and they will benefit from regular feeding. The feedings should be tailored to the refugium both in their size and their content. As many of the animals targeted for the refugium are detritivores, detritus or debris from the main tank would be a good food. Unfortunately, there are detritivores in the main tank too, and they tend to get to the detritus or debris and process it as they should before the material can be moved to the refugium. This means the refugium needs to be fed with other foods doesn’t it?

In my system I consider the refrugium and sump as no more then a nutrient export for the main tank. I use it for the sole purpose of removing nuisance algae from the main tank filtering and clarifying the water and sending it back to the tank in after being heated, skimmed and run threw a UV sterilizer.

In a reef tank many of the corals will use up nutrients in the water as a source of energy or a needed element for growth of the skeleton. If the corals and other filter feeders need the nutrients in the water why try to take them out? Don’t you just have to feed more to keep healthy the every growing population of the inhabitance of the fuge?

 

[tat2z_21]

With a refugium, instead of the detritus and uneaten food becoming trapped in a mechanical filter where it decays, this material will settle within the rock and deep sand in the refugium, where the micro crustaceans such as amphipods and copepods will feed upon it. As a result, and since there are no fish in the refugium, the micro crustaceans multiply, thereby adding a natural food source and biodiversity of the aquarium.
A macroalgae, usually of the Caulerpa genus, is then grown above the rock and sand, and feeds upon the nutrients within the water. This not only aids in keeping these levels from becoming problematic, but will also reduce the number of water changes that are required.

When the refugium is illuminated opposite of the main aquarium, it provides essential oxygen during the nighttime hours when the main aquarium is not illuminated, thereby reducing the nighttime pH fluctuations.

Refugiums provide many benefits to saltwater or reef aquariums. They:

Provide existing aquarium inhabitants with natural food sources such as phytoplankton and zooplankton

Filter water naturally (dramatically lowering nitrate and phosphate levels) and decrease the frequency of water changes that are needed

Stabilize water conditions (especially oxygen level and pH)

Help control algae growth in the existing aquarium

Add trace elements back into existing aquarium water

Serve as temporary acclimation tanks for new inhabitants

May possibly aid the immune systems of fish (it is speculated that many species of macroalgae release compounds into the water that boost immunity in fish)

After development, provide considerable aesthetic value to the system

THESE WORDS WERE STOLEN FROM A WEBSITE IF YOU READ THEM PLEASE RETURN THEM TO THEIR RIGHTFUL OWNER, OR THIS MESSAGE WILL SELF DESTRUCT IN 5, 4, 3, 2, ..........

 

[tat2z_21]

PHYTOPLANKTON- I do not believe that you can harvest you own phyto in your refugium, however they do have phyto reactors.
www.aqua-medic.com/products/planktonreactorsw.jpg

 

[ac7av]

Now I’ve read that the dosing of phytoplankton and zooplankton into the fuge system can be beneficial but how do you grow a population of them in your fuge enough to feed or be beneficial in the main tank with out causing the water to become cloudy? Everything that we do in a fuge discourages the growth of phytoplankton, not encouraging it.

Maybe I’m asking too many questions at once. I was hoping to get a conversations going with more feeling then the technical read out from some web site. I’m not trying to get the technical diagram figured out about what a fuge/sump is but more or less what do you want yours do to and what do you expect from it?

This all kind of started when I was talking to a fellow reefer about the placement of the protein skimmer and the response was to put the protein skimmer before the refrugium because if you put it after the fuge it will remove the phytoplankton that you want to go into the main tank to feed your corals. I just thought this was odd. Everything we do is to remove or restrict pyhtos ability to grow in the tank. Then I started wondering and reading about its purpose on the various websites you can find. It seems like a lot of conflicting information about what they do and why we have them. So many self appointed experts trying to say what’s up.

So many of us do a thing because someone said we should get this item or buy this thing or pump this way and light like this is best. What’s best? Who knows? Best is what you consider best not what someone else says is the best or most beneficial way. As so many people point out that no ones tank is the same and has the same needs so therefore one would assume the equipment and processes used for each tank would need to be different. Or do they?

With out going into to much detail all marine tanks, regardless of the design, have a fixed set of chemistry rules it has to go by or things die. A refrugium is what many reefers use to help stabilize the chemistry of the system. If the rules apply to all tanks then why employ so many pieces of equipment or why not say this is exactly what you need to accomplish this?

 

[tat2z_21]

Jeff,

I am going to start this response off with, that everyone has a different systematic process to acquire there needs. It is said that no two reefs are the same. With that being said, a person running a predominant SPS system will tell you that the water has to be pristine and water changes are to be done every 3 days at noon with only the purist water from an ancient glacier from the face of the Perito Moreno's. Then there are others that have a mixed reef that have to find a balance in between pristine and nutrient rich soup. And still others that go about it different ways to achieve their desired level of husbandry. I have always said to another beginner (which I still am), that there are 3 things that are important to having a successful reef. Filtration of some sort, lighting (depending on requirements), and water flow.

I have offered the use of sumps and refugiums for many of the reasons listed above. It does help clean up the equipment in the display and it also gives an area for maintenance related tasks. I do believe that having the refugium full of various macro's has been beneficial for my system. I also like to sit and stare at my refugium when the display lights are off. I know people that have nothing but sponges in their refugium. Low to no light requirements, and absolutely wonderful filter feeders. I also will say that the fact that I have a 2.5 year old mandarin is because of the explosive pod population in the refugium. Which allows for juvenile pods to circulate up through the pump of life and help constantly renew the population in the display.

So again I will say that the system you build, will be what you find to be beneficial to your system.

 

[ac7av]

Thanks Floyd

I was hoping this thread was going to go in a different directions then it did. I was not trying to find out what to do, I was trying to get a peoples thoughts and opinions on what they are doing, why and what they expect as a result. No so much of everyone’s stuff is different and so it depends on, fill in the blank.

 

[roscoe]

Well to answer your question. The only purpose my sump has is to add water volume and house all of my many equipment for the system and I don't run a fuge as IMO is another maintenace chore to take care of. There are certain compounds that are now available to the hobby that you can do away with a fuge and will aid in lowering nutrients lower than a fuge will ever do.

 

[abushr]

I'm still pretty new to all this, but....I consider my sump as part of my filtration system. It's also used to house my skimmer, chemi-pure, etc.....and the giant white spotted hermit crab I was given....which turned out not to be reef safe...so now it's a sump dweller. I got tired of the cheato grass and so on getting sucked into pumps....so I just recently added a back pack fuge to my sump. Now my plant material can live in peace and my copeopods can continue to breed like bunnies....lol... Since I like to feed any coral or fish that looks hungry.....my overall hope for the sump/fuge is that it helps reduce nitrates naturally, and helps keep the upper tank clean. It's also a handy place for topping off, adding minerals/buffers, and pulling water when doing water changes. I have one of my heaters tucked into the fuge...the other one is hidden in the overflows. Plus the water flow on the tank with the sump/fuge is way better than the flow in the tank that doesn't have one.

 

[KrautBurner]

for me...

my sump is to provide more volume to the tank, and to house my equipment (that I don't want in my display tank)
also when floating new additions to the tank, I do it in the sump (no lights or curious fishies)
and anytime I do top off's, I do it in the sump as to not stir up the sand or disturb the fish in my display tank

I've got a filter sock, protein skimmer, heater, UV Steralizer, extra pieces of LR, and return pump.


my Refugium is not in my sump.
it's a HOB fuge

my main purpous for this is to have a safe place for Pods to reproduce (for feeding to my tank)
I got my fuge (from another reefer here) when I was first thinking about picking up a Mandarin goby - want pods for him to eat.

I also like the idea that it provides oxygen for the tank, as well as helps level out the pH changes since the lighting is opposite of my actinics.

as far as nutrent (nitrogen) export
I don't beleive that the size refugium that most of us have will do much for that.
but it can't hurt. (I pull about half a gallon worth of chaeto out every month or so)

 

[roscoe]

as far as nutrent (nitrogen) export
I don't beleive that the size refugium that most of us have will do much for that.

This is soooo true! I think a fuge need to be at least half the size of the DT for it to properly do it's job.

 

[TJL]

Great info and thoughts guys. I have a 75g System II DT with a 40g fuge/sump which approx 4/5 is a lighted 24/7 fuge. I'm using 'Miracle Mud' and crushed coral for substrate 3+ species of Caulerpa, Chaeto and Halimeda plus a small clean-up crew for maintenance. Tons of pods, many species. 1/5 partition with outlet to return pump filled with bio-balls to reduce micro bubbles and house non-photo sponges & feather dusters.
To me this gives my system much added volume, a large amount of natural food (pods)imported throughout the day, PH/Oxygen stability and a very efficient natural nutrient export. I have successfully used this type of system for the last 20+ years and in past set-ups have even reared baby clowns, cleaner shrimp and anemone shrimp in the fuge. A few pics below:
Since my DT is a 'System II' style tank I have my HOB skimmer and heater in overflow chamber (out of sight and easy access for cleaning) this has allowed me to utilize the entire sump as a fuge which IMO has been a large factor in me keeping the delicate balance of a true mixed reeftank.

Todd

 

[NWDiver]

On top of all that others said, I love to look at mine. I'm really thinking about adding a larger version in my fishroom so I can see better.

 

[reefercity]

Check out this link: http://www.cpraquatic.com/pdf/aquafuge_info.pdf. Hope it helps.

 

[ac7av]

Has anyone done any testing to find out how much a given volume of cheato can remove from the water? It would be interesting to see what it really does and how much it can remove. It seems like the most widely used method of nutrient removal in a reef tank.

 

[reefercity]

The nutrients are exported form the water as the macros grow and are harvested from the refugium. Put a small clump of Cheato in a refugium, watch it grow and remove it as it turns yellow and dies off. The macro is feeding off the nutrient rich water and having a tumbling effect on the clump allows it to grow rapidly.