Revival of RUGF including NNR ! !
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Nikki I don't think anything went wrong with the mud. NY mud just has too many organics in it. I think I did this when they came out with Miracle Mud which is a totally different thing. I am not even sure what I was looking for with the mud except that it would put some chemicals in my reef that were not there in the quantities that the natural sea water alone was supplying.
I have very good results with NY seawater and I figured mud would add something. It did, algae.
My tank is very old and I don't keep it just to see how pretty I can keep it or how long I can keep something alive. My tank is and always has been an experiment. Some of my experiments killed many of my fish, some killed corals but many times I did something that worked in a way that I did not expect. I many times use Clorox bleach to purify NSW if it looks questionable or I think it may have red tide in it. (I did not invent this) But once I made the mistake of using Clorox that was not "regular Clorox" and within seconds most of my fish died. The corals lived but looked horible. Some fish recovered and all the corals did but after that episode maybe 20 years ago (and it has been determined that I have a lousy conception of time) the fish have never been sick with anything. No paracites, bacteria, fungus, unexplained death, nothing. I do not quarintine (but you should) and I many times put fish in my reef with obvious ich. Could it be the chemical in Clorox? I doubt it, but maybe it was. If I put in a fish with ich the ich will disappear on it's own or the fish will die but it will never be transfered to another fish. I have not been able to figure out why. I think it would be a huge benefit to this hobby if I knew the answer.
I also add local New York seaweed (codium) looks great, works in a refugium and it's free. I use New York asphalt for some of my live rock. I collect it underwater where it was dumped in fifty years ago to control erosion. Coraline algae grows much faster on it than "real rock", it is very porous and jamed full of amphipods. Of course it too is free.
I once put doxens of barnacles in to filter the water, not a good idea, they don't live long. Anyway I don't know if I answered your question about the mud but I would put chopped bowling balls in there if I thought it would benefit something.
Have a great day.
Paul
I have very good results with NY seawater and I figured mud would add something. It did, algae.
My tank is very old and I don't keep it just to see how pretty I can keep it or how long I can keep something alive. My tank is and always has been an experiment. Some of my experiments killed many of my fish, some killed corals but many times I did something that worked in a way that I did not expect. I many times use Clorox bleach to purify NSW if it looks questionable or I think it may have red tide in it. (I did not invent this) But once I made the mistake of using Clorox that was not "regular Clorox" and within seconds most of my fish died. The corals lived but looked horible. Some fish recovered and all the corals did but after that episode maybe 20 years ago (and it has been determined that I have a lousy conception of time) the fish have never been sick with anything. No paracites, bacteria, fungus, unexplained death, nothing. I do not quarintine (but you should) and I many times put fish in my reef with obvious ich. Could it be the chemical in Clorox? I doubt it, but maybe it was. If I put in a fish with ich the ich will disappear on it's own or the fish will die but it will never be transfered to another fish. I have not been able to figure out why. I think it would be a huge benefit to this hobby if I knew the answer.
I also add local New York seaweed (codium) looks great, works in a refugium and it's free. I use New York asphalt for some of my live rock. I collect it underwater where it was dumped in fifty years ago to control erosion. Coraline algae grows much faster on it than "real rock", it is very porous and jamed full of amphipods. Of course it too is free.
I once put doxens of barnacles in to filter the water, not a good idea, they don't live long. Anyway I don't know if I answered your question about the mud but I would put chopped bowling balls in there if I thought it would benefit something.
Have a great day.
Paul
There has always been asphalt in my reef. It is nicer looking than real rock, it is much more porous and it's free. I only take the stuff that was under the sea for many years. There is nothing to leach out of it. It is very soft and can easily be broken by hand.
Paul
Paul
NaH2O
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Paul B said:
Yikes! Red tide! Something I hope to never experience again.....the coughing, the burning eyes and nose, and of course the smell of dead fish on the beach
Paul - I've always found your tank/reefkeeping methods interesting, and I'm glad you are sharing your uniqueness with us.
Paul B said:
That's quite interesting...I'd love to discuss this specific of your tank further with you if you don't mind....
By logic, this shouldn't work at all in a reef tank. I'll qaulify everything I say by stating I'm a civil engineering tech with a WMTC certification in asphalt, I'm pretty familiar with it...
Asphalt is pretty nasty stuff. All kinds of volitile, poisonous bad stuff in there. While the specific details of a particular piece of asphalt vary greatly depending on mix design, area of manufacturing and time of manufacturing, they all share some common traits. Asphalt basically consists of a mix of aggregrate and bitumenous binders. The binders vary, but all are a mix of petroleum hydrocarbons, ie byproducts/distillates/waste....like coal tar for example...
The bitumenous binder is the main concern here...if you are finding intact pieces of asphalt and not loose aggregrate, the binders are still present. And they WILL leach...
I'm wondering how these have not killed your tank...there has to be a reason...I'd love to look into this deeper
MikeS
I don't know Mike but it all was under water over fifty years. I have quite a bit of it in my reef for over twenty years. It is all over my marina so I collect it to put in my tank and when the amphipods come out of it in a couple of days I can return it to the beach. But there is a lot of it still in my tank. I can't tell which "rocks" are saphalt because they are totally covered with coraline algae. I am not en engineer but I am a boat Captain so I come across all sorts of things for the tank. It was an experiment that worked.
Take care Mike.
Paul
Take care Mike.
Paul
Quote
By logic, this shouldn't work at all in a reef tank. I'll qaulify everything I say by stating I'm a civil engineering tech with a WMTC certification in asphalt, I'm pretty familiar with it...
Ill qualify everything I say by stating that this reef is 35 years old. :lol:
Mike a lot of people told me that I can't put asphalt in the tank but I believe that after so many years underwater there is just about nothing in it but tar and aggrigate. If I drop it it shatters in many pieces. I even have a five gallon local tank with shrimp, crabs, snails, worms etc that is entirely filled with asphalt. I can send you some of the stuff if you like.
I would imagine that you could tell me why coraline algae grows much faster on it than on "real " rock. One more thing, I have a bunch of those majano anemones and almost all of them are living on the asphalt. There must be something chemically that induces the coraline to grow and also something that those pesty anemones are drawn to. Obviousely there is nothing, or at least very little that is detrimental to the health of the livestock. One fish lived 18 years until I killed it by accident and the corals don't show any signs of dying soon. The gorgonians also seem to prefer the asphalt growing right on it. I would not use the stuff off a street and actually I did not really find it completely submerged, it is at the low water mark at low tide so it is underwater most of the time but it never gets a chance to dry.
My fish also never get ich or anything else. Ich, for some reason does not reproduce in my tank. I can and do add ich infected fish all the time. Maybe old asphalt is the secret to this hobby. :lol:
I just don't know.
Paul
More asphalt rock. The anemones in the second picture are on asphalt.
By logic, this shouldn't work at all in a reef tank. I'll qaulify everything I say by stating I'm a civil engineering tech with a WMTC certification in asphalt, I'm pretty familiar with it...
Ill qualify everything I say by stating that this reef is 35 years old. :lol:
Mike a lot of people told me that I can't put asphalt in the tank but I believe that after so many years underwater there is just about nothing in it but tar and aggrigate. If I drop it it shatters in many pieces. I even have a five gallon local tank with shrimp, crabs, snails, worms etc that is entirely filled with asphalt. I can send you some of the stuff if you like.
I would imagine that you could tell me why coraline algae grows much faster on it than on "real " rock. One more thing, I have a bunch of those majano anemones and almost all of them are living on the asphalt. There must be something chemically that induces the coraline to grow and also something that those pesty anemones are drawn to. Obviousely there is nothing, or at least very little that is detrimental to the health of the livestock. One fish lived 18 years until I killed it by accident and the corals don't show any signs of dying soon. The gorgonians also seem to prefer the asphalt growing right on it. I would not use the stuff off a street and actually I did not really find it completely submerged, it is at the low water mark at low tide so it is underwater most of the time but it never gets a chance to dry.
My fish also never get ich or anything else. Ich, for some reason does not reproduce in my tank. I can and do add ich infected fish all the time. Maybe old asphalt is the secret to this hobby. :lol:
I just don't know.
Paul
More asphalt rock. The anemones in the second picture are on asphalt.
Paul B said:
My best guess on that one would be that perhaps over time and in that particular environment the petroleum binders (tar) have somehow solidified to the point where they are basically stable...
Paul B said:
I'd love to see a few small pieces of it, I'll take it to the materials lab at work and run some tests on it, see if I can get a good idea as to why this stuff isn't killing things in your tank. I can almost say with certaintly that if you put fresher asphalt in a tank, it'll wipe out everything you have...The asphalt I used for the photos in the April Fools thread came from a stockpile of tailings milled up about 2 years ago, from a 10 year old stretch of road, so that asphalt was placed 12 years ago...and in that mock tank, there is all kinds of neat oils floating around and the distinct odor of feul oil...:lol:
But yes, I'd love to have a bit of that asphalt to do some tests on...I can also run a density curve on it and compare it to some unused LR I have, to see how it stacks up in that department...
MikeS
liveforphysics
Banned
Ok, damn. Now I feel obligated to pickup some of the pleantyful chunks of old asphault in the puget sound and try it out...
If old ocean cured asphault is a live rock alternative, I'm about to have a hay day like a kid who just realized he has an unlimited and free liverock pile to play with.
Unrelated to asphault, but on the same subject, there are TONS (literally, hundreds of tons) of cool concrete chunks in the puget sound in different places that have been curing for at least 20+years. I should start picking that stuff up and make a new tank (no room for more rock in my current tanks).
I spoke with a pod expert about if the local cold water types of pods would adapt to tropical water, and she said they just grow and reproduce even faster (or something like that).
Now to work on convinceing the GF that I need another tank for the new appartment we are moving into....
If old ocean cured asphault is a live rock alternative, I'm about to have a hay day like a kid who just realized he has an unlimited and free liverock pile to play with.
Unrelated to asphault, but on the same subject, there are TONS (literally, hundreds of tons) of cool concrete chunks in the puget sound in different places that have been curing for at least 20+years. I should start picking that stuff up and make a new tank (no room for more rock in my current tanks).
I spoke with a pod expert about if the local cold water types of pods would adapt to tropical water, and she said they just grow and reproduce even faster (or something like that).
Now to work on convinceing the GF that I need another tank for the new appartment we are moving into....
liveforphysics said:
Luke my man, you are killing me here...if you never take my word on any other subject, trust me and take it on this...DON'T DO IT
I have no idea why the asphalt hasn't killed his tank...believe me if I gave you a list of raw ingredients (not counting aggregrate) you wouldn't even want to touch the stuff, let alone put it in a reef tank...:lol: That's why I'm glad Paul is going to send me some samples...there has to be a reason it hasn't killed everything in his tank and I'd like to get a clue as to why...In the meantime, don't put it in your tank...:lol: If you doubt me, call the WA DOT, ask them if they still dump asphalt in the Sound, when they say "no" ask them why....
MikeS
I think everyone should collect all the asphalt they can and send it to Mike to test. :badgrin:
Liveforphysics, don't go calling me in the middle of the night to tell me everything died from asphalt poisoning. New York asphalt may have coral vitamins in it for all I know :doubt:
Since I live on an Island (Long Island) that is over 100 miles long and there is a lot of history on these shores, there are all sorts of things I find to put in the tank. We also have tons of concrete which is not any where near as nice looking as asphalt but I am sure a lot safer. The beach where I collect this asphalt was made because that area used to be used for sand collection which was used to build the streets and buildings in NYC and surrounding areas. I think the asphalt was dumped there about the late fiftees to control erosion on the beach after they removed much of the sand, which means that asphalt was made much sooner, maybe in the thirtees.
Now it is a public beach and a boat ramp. It is loaded with amphipods (and crabs) and I even collect them in the winter under the ice. I once collected amphipods under the ice there on a day that was 4 degrees. Maybe the asphalt gives them extra strength
Anyway, I will send Mike some and hopefully he can shed some light on what it is made out of. If it's good, maybe I will start a live "Rock" asphalt business :badgrin:
Have a great day.
Paul
Paul
Liveforphysics, don't go calling me in the middle of the night to tell me everything died from asphalt poisoning. New York asphalt may have coral vitamins in it for all I know :doubt:
Since I live on an Island (Long Island) that is over 100 miles long and there is a lot of history on these shores, there are all sorts of things I find to put in the tank. We also have tons of concrete which is not any where near as nice looking as asphalt but I am sure a lot safer. The beach where I collect this asphalt was made because that area used to be used for sand collection which was used to build the streets and buildings in NYC and surrounding areas. I think the asphalt was dumped there about the late fiftees to control erosion on the beach after they removed much of the sand, which means that asphalt was made much sooner, maybe in the thirtees.
Now it is a public beach and a boat ramp. It is loaded with amphipods (and crabs) and I even collect them in the winter under the ice. I once collected amphipods under the ice there on a day that was 4 degrees. Maybe the asphalt gives them extra strength
Anyway, I will send Mike some and hopefully he can shed some light on what it is made out of. If it's good, maybe I will start a live "Rock" asphalt business :badgrin:
Have a great day.
Paul
Paul
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aquariumdebacle
electrolyte addict
I've been tellin' people for years if they want salmon they should rip up their driveway. "Galloping Gertie" should be able to provide tons of liverock if we can reverse:
The sunken remains of "Galloping Gertie" were placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1992 to protect her from salvagers.
http://www.ketchum.org/tacomacollapse.html
Who knew that asphalt would save the world! next we are going to find out that chloroflourcarbons promote good health!
The sunken remains of "Galloping Gertie" were placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1992 to protect her from salvagers.
http://www.ketchum.org/tacomacollapse.html
Who knew that asphalt would save the world! next we are going to find out that chloroflourcarbons promote good health!
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Mike I mailed you some asphalt today. I didn't think insurance was worth it. We have plenty of asphalt in NY :lol:
The piece I sent I chiseled off a larger piece. It kind of crumbled but I sent the pieces and a piece about 2" square. I hope it is sufficient. I also sent a sample of my tank water in a seperate bottle in case you want to look for some type of asphalt antidote in it
Take care.
Paul
The piece I sent I chiseled off a larger piece. It kind of crumbled but I sent the pieces and a piece about 2" square. I hope it is sufficient. I also sent a sample of my tank water in a seperate bottle in case you want to look for some type of asphalt antidote in it
Take care.
Paul
Nikki, I keep my boat in the Long Island Sound, the water between NY and Conn. We get huge fish kills every couple of years. It is either the red tide (which is not as bad) or hypoxia where the water becomes too warm. Most of our fish are bunker (menhaden), bluefish and stripped bass. The last fish kill, we had dead fish in every bay and harbor so thick that there was no space at all between dead fish for about a quarter mile away from shore. It is unbelievable the amount of fish in this water. Of course I don't collect water (or go near it) under these conditions. The red tide kills much less fish but we still get areas 100 yards across completely covered in carcases.
Of course "Clorox" kills red tide and almost anything else. The hypoxia just kills fish because the water is too warm and can't hold enough oxygen. That water is safe to use in a reef except for the obvious bacteria caused by dead fish. "Clorox" takes care of that too. Now for a disclaimer. I am not advocation using "Clorox" in your tank. I do not work for the Clorox company and do not get royaltes if you buy Clorox. I am also not advocating NSW with red tide, hypoxia, dead fish, asphalt or Oldsmobiles in it. :lol:
Do not do what I do. I seem to be very lucky or very smart. Probably just lucky.
Have a great day (anyone want to order some Clorox? :badgrin: )
Paul
I just got it today...I probably won't be able to do much with it until next week, I have a pretty nasty work schedule with a new bridge for the rest of this week. In the meantime, I'm going to dry the sample back so I can get some good dry weights on it next week when I start looking at it...BTW thanks for sending it...
Mikes
Mikes
