Mushroom Boy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2003
- Messages
- 251
Any updated shots, Chuck? How's the tank coming along?
Sandbed Removal Complete - Heavy Graphics
- Thread starter MtnDewMan
- Start date
Help Support Reef Aquarium & Tank Building Forum:
No updated shots yet. The tank is definately going through a cycle, hopefully it won't last that long.
Minh Nguyen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2003
- Messages
- 95
Let me jump in here about DSB.
My DSB works great. I seeded them with sands from 15 tanks of friends. I also added a huge amount of sand/mud I got from Corpus Christi Bay at peak of the summer (temperatures of the water in the low 90's). I used sand that was always completely submerged. I use a deep shovel to get sand/mud down to about 18 inched and got about 20 gallon of this stuff to added into my tank. I got worm tracks everywhere in my DSB, I got lots of casting from worms in the sand. There are mounts of casting in my sand that is about 1 inches high and 4 inch in diameter that come overnight. These are from huge worms in the sand bed. My sand bed was also very deep, 12+ inches in the back and about 10 inches in the front. I used 2500+ pounds of Southdown sand when I set it up in 1999. When my tank crashed from my Kalk/skimmer mishap, there were several worms that are about 3 foot long. I tried to save them but was not able to. I see no indication that my DSB is crashing after 4 years. I do try my very best to make sure that the DSB have a biodiversity needed to do well. I planted Sea grass in my tank. At the time of the crash my grass have start to spread in my refugium.
I think of the sand bed as another living component of my tank. I see thing spawned from the sand bed all the time. My turbo snails have orgies every week or so. When Turbo spawned, they crawled to the to of the water and send up smoke. It was a neat sight to see. All of the snails would spawn as once. I got baby turbo grew up in my tank, until I put a Harlequin Tusk fish into the tank. This fish wipe out my baby snail population in about 2 weeks. I will not try to keep another Tusk in my tank.
I am setting my tank up again. I plan to have another DSB in both my tank and my refugium. I firmly believe that my tank was extremely healthy when it crashed, and the DSB was the major component that make it so.
Minh
My DSB works great. I seeded them with sands from 15 tanks of friends. I also added a huge amount of sand/mud I got from Corpus Christi Bay at peak of the summer (temperatures of the water in the low 90's). I used sand that was always completely submerged. I use a deep shovel to get sand/mud down to about 18 inched and got about 20 gallon of this stuff to added into my tank. I got worm tracks everywhere in my DSB, I got lots of casting from worms in the sand. There are mounts of casting in my sand that is about 1 inches high and 4 inch in diameter that come overnight. These are from huge worms in the sand bed. My sand bed was also very deep, 12+ inches in the back and about 10 inches in the front. I used 2500+ pounds of Southdown sand when I set it up in 1999. When my tank crashed from my Kalk/skimmer mishap, there were several worms that are about 3 foot long. I tried to save them but was not able to. I see no indication that my DSB is crashing after 4 years. I do try my very best to make sure that the DSB have a biodiversity needed to do well. I planted Sea grass in my tank. At the time of the crash my grass have start to spread in my refugium.
I think of the sand bed as another living component of my tank. I see thing spawned from the sand bed all the time. My turbo snails have orgies every week or so. When Turbo spawned, they crawled to the to of the water and send up smoke. It was a neat sight to see. All of the snails would spawn as once. I got baby turbo grew up in my tank, until I put a Harlequin Tusk fish into the tank. This fish wipe out my baby snail population in about 2 weeks. I will not try to keep another Tusk in my tank.
I am setting my tank up again. I plan to have another DSB in both my tank and my refugium. I firmly believe that my tank was extremely healthy when it crashed, and the DSB was the major component that make it so.
Minh
I agree Minh that is exactly what it is. I also agree with you that a DSB probibly will not crash. Thats not what happens to them bud. They eventually loose thier ability to sink Non Nitrogenious waste. That and they dont have the ability to control phosphate and thus will leach it. With your system ha ving a 10 to 12 inch bed I would say you got lots of time
. As per the worm tracks yes particular worms have the ability to dive into the anoxic zone for periods of time. These are really important to the whole DSB concept. They are the ones that migrate detrus down and nitrogen gass up in the sand bed. I personally am not trying to say DSB's are bad, they (just like most things) have limitations and drawbacks
nice to see ya on the board Minh and look foreward to your future posts.
Mike
Glad to hear you have had such great success Minh ... I wish mine was the same, I obviously didn't have the life in mine that you have in yours. Mine was doing nothing below the first 1/2" and above that it was phosphate city ... Starting to have some better luck as my "new" tank starts to acclimate without the bed and the new rock.
M
monkonishiki
Guest
I am new and I am not sure I understand where the organisims in a live DSB are residing.Are they living in and stirring the anoxic zone?
Hey Monkonishiki welcome to the board. I will try to give you the quick concept of how it works. 99 % of all the critters live in the areobic zone (fully oxygenated water) and a few in the anerobic zone (the transistion zone between oxygenated water ans water devoid of oxygen). In the anoxic zone ( an area devoid of oxygen) bacterial live still thrives. This bacteria reduces stuff like sulfate/methane/metals/ and so on. The problem with that is that all the biproducts of those processes are poisenious to all that we keep in our tank. This is why folks that promote this system tell you not to stir it.
anyway thats the short version, let me know if you want more
Mike
anyway thats the short version, let me know if you want more
Mike
Minh Nguyen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2003
- Messages
- 95
IME, It is not quite so simple as mojoreef stated. Creatures live way down in a deep sand bed even though deep to about 10-12 inches in my sand bed the condition there is near anoxic. I see worm tracks down to 12-14 inch, the bottom of my deep sand bed, along the edge of the tank near the back glass. I deduced that large worm also live deep in the middle of the sand bed also. I got worm casting overnight that total volume of 2-4 cubic inch. It got to be large worm that produce these casting. I put about 20 gallons of deep mud from Corpus Christi Bay to my tank when I first set it up. We know that in natures, many animals that live two three feet down under the surface of the mud/sand. I think all of these animals have ways of getting oxygen deep down there to use. I see tiny crustacean tunnels that are several inches deep. These crustaceans stay in their tunnels and fan the tunnels with their legs. I assume that they get food and oxygen down to them to live this way. In a barren sand bed, the oxygen level become anaerobic and anoxic very quickly, but in a live sand bed I am not so sure. I think that our tank ecosystem is very complicated. Simple easy explaination or often quite wrong.
I know I did not answer your question, but I hope this help. It is something to think about at least.
Minh
I know I did not answer your question, but I hope this help. It is something to think about at least.
Minh
Hey Minh thanks for the reply. As I stated some kinds of worms have the ability to hold thier breathe and dive deep in the lower reaches of the DSB. This explains the worm trails that u see in your bed. Trying to coralate what happens in nature with sand substraights to our tank just cant be done. Wave action and huge ammounts of flow flush the sand and keep it detritus free and thus areobic. we dont hqave anything close to that kind of flow or water motion, folks that use DSB's have even less. The only possible corralation that you could draw to nature is that of mud flats or shallow lagoons, but thats not what most of us are trying to recreate.
One of the big problems with this type of substraigt is recruitment (the amount of critters being constantly introduced to the substraight) our tank DSB's have no chance what so ever of even coming close to what it is in nature. What ends up happening in our tanks is the eventual taking over of the ecosystem by specialized critters and the dieing off of most of them.
See Minh we just dont have the kind of energy that reefs have in the wild. Several studies done in the wild have shown that the DOC processing of Sad substraights in the wild increase up to 75 % with the added action of waves (flushing the detritus out to sea). couple that with the lack of recruitement, and the fact they only process nitrogenious waste, and then lets not forget phosphates and thier are alot of things to concider when going with one.
My friend sometimes simple is alot easier. Simply remove the detritus and then you dont have to create this elaborate ecosystem to process it.
Mike
One of the big problems with this type of substraigt is recruitment (the amount of critters being constantly introduced to the substraight) our tank DSB's have no chance what so ever of even coming close to what it is in nature. What ends up happening in our tanks is the eventual taking over of the ecosystem by specialized critters and the dieing off of most of them.
See Minh we just dont have the kind of energy that reefs have in the wild. Several studies done in the wild have shown that the DOC processing of Sad substraights in the wild increase up to 75 % with the added action of waves (flushing the detritus out to sea). couple that with the lack of recruitement, and the fact they only process nitrogenious waste, and then lets not forget phosphates and thier are alot of things to concider when going with one.
My friend sometimes simple is alot easier. Simply remove the detritus and then you dont have to create this elaborate ecosystem to process it.
Mike
Minh Nguyen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2003
- Messages
- 95
Mike,
i posted this on the other thread. I will just copy it here.
*******************
For me, I love my DSB. I can keep very delicate corals like Goniopora and grow SPS very quickly. I add a huge amount of Ca to my tank to support my coral growth and my corals are growing out of the tank. My fish are all doing well and breeding the tank. My Banggai cardinal even grew up and mature in my overflow box without me feeding it.
DSB is very efficient at handling Nitrogenous waste. In keeping Marine tanks, I never have undetectable nitrates without a DSB, and never have detectable Nitrates with a DSB. It also provides lots of live food for my tank animals. I got a deep, deep sand bed that is about 6 inch in my sump and average about 10 inch in my tank. The surface area is 34X96 in the tank and 18X48 in the sump. I did seed it very well from many tanks and about 20 gallons of deed mud from the Corpus Christi bay.
I do know the limitation of the sand bed and deal with it accordingly. I change water 25% every 2-3 months (120 gallons). I have three 65 g Rubber maids to mix the water. I have another RO system in my garage to get the RO water needed. I grow lots of algae, mangroves, and sea grasses in my sump. I light my sump with two 250 W MH and harvest the macro algae very regular. I know that what going to the tank got to come out in order to balance the tank. I got a large skimmer for my tank also. The way I think about it, I got to take the same amount of Biomass out of the system as I out into it or very close to it.
My DSB work well for me. If I have to change the DSB out every 20 years, then I will. I don't see evidence that my DSB is causing problem for my tank. I know that my coral are doing great and will keep my DSB until my experiences tell me otherwise.
The important point here is that our tank, as a close system needs to have balance. We cannot add thing into it forever without removing it and expect it to stay in balance. One need to know that the DSB does not export phosphorous well and we as aquarium keeper need to deal with it. I keep my deep sand bed, not because I think it will last forever, unless I have method to remove the phosphorous from the tank. I keep it because I can have much higher biomass density in my tank with it and thus can keep delicate, hard to keep animals.
In living organisms Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium are there of the most important elements beside Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen. Of these phosphorous is the only one that we cannot get rid of automatically in a aquarium with DSB. One just has to have other method of export the phosphorous from the tank. As I export phosphorous from my tank by various mean, I also get rid of the micronutrient like trace element and keep them from get to toxic level in my tank. I also do not intentionally add these trace elements (Iodine, Strontium, trace element soup etc.) in to my tank.
There have been many DSB bashing lately. IMO, that DSB is a very successful method of keeping aquarium. But it is not a magical way to keep your aquarium in balance. It just helps me to keep my animal thriving. It keeps the conditions of my tank much close to nature. That is why I use DSB in my aquarium.
Minh
*************
i posted this on the other thread. I will just copy it here.
*******************
For me, I love my DSB. I can keep very delicate corals like Goniopora and grow SPS very quickly. I add a huge amount of Ca to my tank to support my coral growth and my corals are growing out of the tank. My fish are all doing well and breeding the tank. My Banggai cardinal even grew up and mature in my overflow box without me feeding it.
DSB is very efficient at handling Nitrogenous waste. In keeping Marine tanks, I never have undetectable nitrates without a DSB, and never have detectable Nitrates with a DSB. It also provides lots of live food for my tank animals. I got a deep, deep sand bed that is about 6 inch in my sump and average about 10 inch in my tank. The surface area is 34X96 in the tank and 18X48 in the sump. I did seed it very well from many tanks and about 20 gallons of deed mud from the Corpus Christi bay.
I do know the limitation of the sand bed and deal with it accordingly. I change water 25% every 2-3 months (120 gallons). I have three 65 g Rubber maids to mix the water. I have another RO system in my garage to get the RO water needed. I grow lots of algae, mangroves, and sea grasses in my sump. I light my sump with two 250 W MH and harvest the macro algae very regular. I know that what going to the tank got to come out in order to balance the tank. I got a large skimmer for my tank also. The way I think about it, I got to take the same amount of Biomass out of the system as I out into it or very close to it.
My DSB work well for me. If I have to change the DSB out every 20 years, then I will. I don't see evidence that my DSB is causing problem for my tank. I know that my coral are doing great and will keep my DSB until my experiences tell me otherwise.
The important point here is that our tank, as a close system needs to have balance. We cannot add thing into it forever without removing it and expect it to stay in balance. One need to know that the DSB does not export phosphorous well and we as aquarium keeper need to deal with it. I keep my deep sand bed, not because I think it will last forever, unless I have method to remove the phosphorous from the tank. I keep it because I can have much higher biomass density in my tank with it and thus can keep delicate, hard to keep animals.
In living organisms Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium are there of the most important elements beside Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen. Of these phosphorous is the only one that we cannot get rid of automatically in a aquarium with DSB. One just has to have other method of export the phosphorous from the tank. As I export phosphorous from my tank by various mean, I also get rid of the micronutrient like trace element and keep them from get to toxic level in my tank. I also do not intentionally add these trace elements (Iodine, Strontium, trace element soup etc.) in to my tank.
There have been many DSB bashing lately. IMO, that DSB is a very successful method of keeping aquarium. But it is not a magical way to keep your aquarium in balance. It just helps me to keep my animal thriving. It keeps the conditions of my tank much close to nature. That is why I use DSB in my aquarium.
Minh
*************
Great reply Minh. Its good to see your tank was doing so well prior to the mishap (how are things going with it anyway???)
I think hopeing for a DSB to last that long seems to be a stretch but all the power to ya. One does not need a DSB to have the kinds of sucesses that u have been having, thousands of tanks have been up for decades with out them. at keast you know most of the downsides and are trying to offset them, good on you. For my self I have about 3/4 of an inch of CC and also have no detectable nitrates also, with out the DSB I can run water flows closer to nature with out worring about dust storms, I can keep critters (brittle stars, gobies and such ) that I couldnt in a DSB tank. I do not have to deal with phosphates, sulfates and so on that are a part of DSB's. I also dont need to run macros or other algaes as I remove the nutrient source prior to it becoming a problem.
Anyway it has been a good conversation Minh, I look forward to many more
Take care
mike
I think hopeing for a DSB to last that long seems to be a stretch but all the power to ya. One does not need a DSB to have the kinds of sucesses that u have been having, thousands of tanks have been up for decades with out them. at keast you know most of the downsides and are trying to offset them, good on you. For my self I have about 3/4 of an inch of CC and also have no detectable nitrates also, with out the DSB I can run water flows closer to nature with out worring about dust storms, I can keep critters (brittle stars, gobies and such ) that I couldnt in a DSB tank. I do not have to deal with phosphates, sulfates and so on that are a part of DSB's. I also dont need to run macros or other algaes as I remove the nutrient source prior to it becoming a problem.
Anyway it has been a good conversation Minh, I look forward to many more
Take care
mike
M
monkonishiki
Guest
Hi all,
Thx for the welcome and your rapid reply to my post.
I understand a lot more now.
I am not totally convinced that DSB is the way for me to go.It seems a little like in overcoming a small problem(NO3 for the most part) I am creating much bigger problems.
For twenty years I have avoided anoxic environs in my freshwater set-ups and now it is very hard to go against the grain because I want to keep a reef.
I was thinking of a refugium with macro algae and LR to promote Pod`s.Do you all think this will be a viable solution for NO3 or am I better off with some other method?
Much thx from the new guy.(Am I off topic?Sorry if I am.)
Thx for the welcome and your rapid reply to my post.
I understand a lot more now.
I am not totally convinced that DSB is the way for me to go.It seems a little like in overcoming a small problem(NO3 for the most part) I am creating much bigger problems.
For twenty years I have avoided anoxic environs in my freshwater set-ups and now it is very hard to go against the grain because I want to keep a reef.
I was thinking of a refugium with macro algae and LR to promote Pod`s.Do you all think this will be a viable solution for NO3 or am I better off with some other method?
Much thx from the new guy.(Am I off topic?Sorry if I am.)
No problem Monkonishiki this is how we all learn. Good clean debate is the way we like it hear (flame free).
This is the way i look at it, so my personal opinion. Our reef tanks have Live rock. Everything that happens in a DSB happens in LR, just not as much. Also a LR does not have a bottom and will actually shed detritus (which is better then storing it). So you already have a denitrifing system in the tank. With a good skimmer and good flow you make the detritus suspend in the water, thus making it available for the corals to eat and the skimmer and/or refugium to export. if its in the bed it aint going anywhere. With the removal of the detritus through skimming and the odd gravel vac you do not have the ammount of doc's or nitrates to deal with as you have already removed them prior to the processing. So as an old crusty marine biologist once old me, if it aint thier boy, you aint got to deal with it, lol
Your plan for a refugium is sound and a good idea. do understand what you really are dong is creating a refuge for critter to breed. Good plan. Macro algae is ok for uptake of nutrients but thier are a couple thing to look out for. One is that algaes have week cell structures so for every 10 ppm's they uptake they spew out 6pmm (but its still a possitive). Beware of the going sexual and take precautions to keep that from happening. and choose your algae carefully, most if not ll algaes emmit chemicals just like softies do in order to compeat in the wild.
Hope it helps
Mike
This is the way i look at it, so my personal opinion. Our reef tanks have Live rock. Everything that happens in a DSB happens in LR, just not as much. Also a LR does not have a bottom and will actually shed detritus (which is better then storing it). So you already have a denitrifing system in the tank. With a good skimmer and good flow you make the detritus suspend in the water, thus making it available for the corals to eat and the skimmer and/or refugium to export. if its in the bed it aint going anywhere. With the removal of the detritus through skimming and the odd gravel vac you do not have the ammount of doc's or nitrates to deal with as you have already removed them prior to the processing. So as an old crusty marine biologist once old me, if it aint thier boy, you aint got to deal with it, lol
Your plan for a refugium is sound and a good idea. do understand what you really are dong is creating a refuge for critter to breed. Good plan. Macro algae is ok for uptake of nutrients but thier are a couple thing to look out for. One is that algaes have week cell structures so for every 10 ppm's they uptake they spew out 6pmm (but its still a possitive). Beware of the going sexual and take precautions to keep that from happening. and choose your algae carefully, most if not ll algaes emmit chemicals just like softies do in order to compeat in the wild.
Hope it helps
Mike
Minh Nguyen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2003
- Messages
- 95
On the other side, many people with DSB and reported that it crash, often neglet their tank in term of import and export. There are many threads of people not do any water change at all. They can do this for years then their tank crash. A DSB is that good in process waste. There is no way that one can go without water change in a tank without DSB. I know because I have to do lots of water change to keep nutrient in manageable level when I have bare bottom tank.
IME, you will have lots more lead way with a DSB. Water quality will be better. Your tank will be healthier, especially initially. If you maintain your DSB correctly, IMO, it will not crash your tank latter on. Many people have long-term success with DSB.
Bare bottom is a successful way to keep a reef also. IMO, you will not able to keep some of the really hard, sensitive coral as well with bare bottom tanks. Certainly, my fish do lot better in tanks with DSB.
Minh
IME, you will have lots more lead way with a DSB. Water quality will be better. Your tank will be healthier, especially initially. If you maintain your DSB correctly, IMO, it will not crash your tank latter on. Many people have long-term success with DSB.
Bare bottom is a successful way to keep a reef also. IMO, you will not able to keep some of the really hard, sensitive coral as well with bare bottom tanks. Certainly, my fish do lot better in tanks with DSB.
Minh
Agreed Minh 100 %. Doesnt matter what style you perfer with out good husbandry its just a matter of time.
hehehe well I beg to differ once again buddy
I have never done water changes. BUT my set up is different then most and I wouldnt reccomend it to others. I have an elaborate system to purify and replenish my exsisting water. For me I perfer it to being so dependant on ASW.mike
Minh Nguyen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2003
- Messages
- 95
Mike,mojoreef said:hehehe well I beg to differ once again buddy
mike
Please elaborate on your setup or point to a site where I can read about them. It would be very interseting. I love to learn new things.
Minh
and yet I did massive, frequent water changes with only natural sea water and my bed still crashed in just a few years.
I have the opposite, I've run bare bottom all my life and had to do less water changes and had less nutrient buildup. It's been my personal observation that without the DSB to catch and hold detritus, it's easier for me to remove it before it breaks down.
So yes, I agree. It is a matter of husbandry and knowing how to run the different systems. If you don't know how to run a certain system, it won't work for you. We keep sensitive corals better in clean, barebottom systems.
I have the opposite, I've run bare bottom all my life and had to do less water changes and had less nutrient buildup. It's been my personal observation that without the DSB to catch and hold detritus, it's easier for me to remove it before it breaks down.
So yes, I agree. It is a matter of husbandry and knowing how to run the different systems. If you don't know how to run a certain system, it won't work for you. We keep sensitive corals better in clean, barebottom systems.
I agree Skippy just getting rid of it prior to breakdown is so much easier, out of sight out of mind.
Minh your making me work
Ok.
>1000 lbs of Live rock
>etss 2500 skimmer driven by a 1/2 hp pump (the 5 foot model)
>120 watts of UV
>110 gallon mangrove refugium
>10 gallons a day of kalk
>carbon filter 1 week every month
>gravel vac once every month and a half
>massive flow to make the detritus available for the skimmer and other filters.
>About 1 cubic foot of sponges (living) in sump compartment. God knows how much in the main.
here is a link to a thread on its construction
http://www.thepsas.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=155
Minh your making me work
Ok.
>1000 lbs of Live rock
>etss 2500 skimmer driven by a 1/2 hp pump (the 5 foot model)
>120 watts of UV
>110 gallon mangrove refugium
>10 gallons a day of kalk
>carbon filter 1 week every month
>gravel vac once every month and a half
>massive flow to make the detritus available for the skimmer and other filters.
>About 1 cubic foot of sponges (living) in sump compartment. God knows how much in the main.
here is a link to a thread on its construction
http://www.thepsas.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=155
M
monkonishiki
Guest
Wow,you guys are good.Thanks a heap.I now feel as if I have a much better idea about DSB`s.No flames either.Thx.
I think I will hold off on a DSB and see how I go keeping the corals that I come to fancy.If things don`t work out with out the DSB then I will add a remote DSB to see how the system will progress.
I will add the refugium for Pod`s and NO3 export.I have read that levels of NO3 <40ppm have no affect on corals.what do you all think about this?
Would you be concerned if a reef system contained 40ppm of NO3?
Again probably old news but I am learning so...
Thx if you can help,again.
I think I will hold off on a DSB and see how I go keeping the corals that I come to fancy.If things don`t work out with out the DSB then I will add a remote DSB to see how the system will progress.
I will add the refugium for Pod`s and NO3 export.I have read that levels of NO3 <40ppm have no affect on corals.what do you all think about this?
Would you be concerned if a reef system contained 40ppm of NO3?
Again probably old news but I am learning so...
Thx if you can help,again.
V
Vman
Guest
Wow, tons of great learning in this thread. I have had nothing but success with my DSB. I tried a new approach with mine. It is located in my 50 gal refuge (show tank being 75 gal). What I did was angle the plumbing so that the input from the main tank (1200 gph) is firing into the bottom corner of the fuge. At that end I put some Live Rubble to break up the impact on loose sand, as well as a soccer ball sized chunk of caulerpa. From there I began to slope the sand, ultimately achieving about 10 in on the overflow side. This allows for quite a bit of flow to pass over the surface of the bed. The amount of life in there is simply amazing!
I personally think that if you do use a DSB, it should be remotely located for ease of removal and/or replacement. I am so happy with mine that even if it 'fills up', I'll take a couple hours and yank it out and replace it every four or five years! Putting a DSB in the main tank seems to me like taking a carbon filter and burying it under a rock, at some point you'll have to tear everything down to get to it. :shock:
I personally think that if you do use a DSB, it should be remotely located for ease of removal and/or replacement. I am so happy with mine that even if it 'fills up', I'll take a couple hours and yank it out and replace it every four or five years! Putting a DSB in the main tank seems to me like taking a carbon filter and burying it under a rock, at some point you'll have to tear everything down to get to it. :shock:
