SE vs. DE

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big t

tankless
Joined
Oct 21, 2003
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Hey you guys,

Ever since I started this hobby I have heard lots and lots of good things about DE. I have always heard that having a 250w DE bulb is similar to having a 400w MH. So what gives? I looked thru sanjay's site extensively and have to say that a 250W SE running a 250w HQI ballast is the way to go hands down compared to the DE counterpart. Here is the site for those who want to go check out their combo. http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/ When I started out w/ MH's I decided to go w/ SE bulbs because they are generally cheaper, I am cheap so that is what I went with. It seems that I made the right choice. I will use my bulbs for example: I am running 250w XM 10k's SE they score 182PPFD and 9921 CCT when running a M80 ballast. The 250W 10k DE sheilded running the same ballast scores 109 PPFD and 7026 CCT (I don't know what CCT is yet) So it seems that you get almost 69% more light out of the SE combo. So check out this sight, compare and let me know what you think. If you are running DE, why did you decide to go that route?
 
The two bulbs are virtually identical. Put a glass bubble over a DE bulb and you basically end up with an SE bulb. It all comes down to the reflector. In fact that big glass bubble on an SE bulb is a UV shield. DE bulbs don't have this shield.

DE = smaller bulb = more efficient reflector design/smaller enclosure. A DE bulb offers no advantage over an SE bulb without a suitable reflector.

SE bulbs did not not compete for the longest time. Spider reflectors helped up the ante, but Lumenarc reflectors are efficient enough to put the SE bulb back on a level playing field with DE bulbs. You will notice that they are big though.
 
Based on what I read on sanjay's site MH bulbs with no reflector and running the same ballast, SE bulbs consistantly had much higher PAR then DE bulbs, in the case of the XM's that I posted above it was 69% more PAR. I don't think they are anywhere close to identical.
 
I don't know much about lighting, but I was convinced of the same thing when I bought my lights. I was told for the extra money I was spending I would get a lot better performance. I feel like it was a huge waste now. Thanks for the info big t.
 
Without reflector perhaps, but did the DE have the glass filter? Furthermore, a DE must always be run with a reflector, so those numbers are irrelevant in a way.

Let's say the SE is more powerfult than a DE without reflectors. When would you find a DE bulb without a reflector? The challenge for SE users is to find a bulb/reflector that can match the light output of a DE pendent/bulb.

They all have their place, but a DE setup offers more light output in a smaller package. An SE output can match or surpass a DE setups output, but the retrofit is harder to install and requires lots of room.

It's a trade off really, DE has a higher cost, but it results in a neat, compact easy to install package. SE has the same performance with lower cost, but in a larger, harder to fit package. DE does offer a slightly better choice in bulb options. It's a toss up really, and not a waste of money. If you bought a SeaClone at full retail, then you have wasted money.:D
 
You asked!

I consider myself well versed in the SE/DE comparison and there are several conversations to be had here.

· PAR output
· Shielding
· Spectral output
· Reflector/Bulb distribution
· 250W DE, 400W DE
· Bulb selection/replacement cost

PAR:
Comparing the PAR variance on bulbs made by the same manufacturers isn't the way to go. Some bulb makers are simply better at making DE bulbs while others are better at making SE bulbs.

Example: The 250W Iwasaki 6500K SE bulb yields 189 PPFD while the unshielded 250W EVC 10K DE yields 179 PPFD. Such a slight drop in PAR while significantly “whitening” the spectrum is very good.

So what about shielding(s)?

MH bulbs emit toxic levels of UV A, B, and C. In order to protect people/animals from harmful UV a glass shield is used. SE bulbs are made with a safely rated shield. DE bulbs require an external shield (usually mounted below the bulb).

Most DE pendant makers use low grade E-glass as a shield. It is a green glass with reflective qualities, so while effective at shielding UV it also reflects a portion of the otherwise useable light back up toward the bulb. It seems the consensus of PAR degradation is between 10 and 20%. This can be greatly improved by using an aftermarket glass replacement from a framing or glass shop. Tru-view museum grade glass was my choice. It is a low iron glass like Starphire with antireflective qualities. You need to be careful about the cheaper anti reflective glass because they achieve reducing reflection by etching. This will reduce the light making it through the glass so stick with the good stuff. My Tru-view glass shield for a Luminarc3 ran be about 15.00.

While PAR and the impacts shielding has on it is important, in the bigger picture PAR is a small portion of you lighting decision. Virtually all aquarium MH bulbs can sustain and grow high light demanding photosynthetic life.

Spectral output:

Spectral output determines and impacts a number of things. It changes the appearance of the tank to the human eye. It encourages/influences coral pigment coloration. It also impacts the intensity of the useable light (PAR).

Spectrum is measured in Kelvins (K). The lower the Kelvin the yellower the appearance of light. I won’t dive into the heart of spectrum but I will keep it simple and relevant to the SE/DE comparison.

SE and DE bulbs regardless of assigned Kelvin (10K, 14K, 20K…) emit different spectral outputs. So a 14K DE bulb may look perfect to you while the SE counterpart doesn’t. In my case the 400W DE 20K looked great to me while striking a balance of color and PAR. Radium being on the Blue end and 10K XM’s being too yellow the PFO 400W DE was juuust right ;)

Reflector Distribution:

Light emitted off the bulb is one thing but what makes it into the tank is entirely different. The reflector used determines where the light will we distributed and how.

SE bulbs can be housed in a number of reflectors. Pendants, Spider-type Parabolic, Luminarc3, even aluminum gutters! While in theory this can also be said about DE bulbs, retrofitting will be necessary in all cases except the pendants. Pendants are an area where DE bulbs shine (pun intended). The shape of the bulb married to a parabolic pendant reflector creates a very efficient emission of light. This is good and bad, because while showing peak PAR that is through the roof near the center of the reflector, the outer areas drop.

IMO the pendants are good for smaller tank applications with special constraints. As soon as your tank gets wider than 18-24” you might begin wishing you had a more even distribution across a square shaped area versus a laser beam up the middle in a rectangular shape.

I myself retro-fitted an Luminarc3 to support a 400W DE bulb and IMO this was a very successful implementation. Good color/PAR balance with a wide 24-30” square distribution that was pleasing to my eyes.

A real quick note on bulb distribution: SE and DE bulbs are different in size and shape. This also impacts the light distribution. The 400W DE bulb is very long and in my experience achieves better intensity coverage, but at the same time with L3 reflectors this virtually becomes a mute point because the L3 is so good at evening out the entire distribution.

250W DE, 400W DE:

By far and large the 250W DE bulbs are much more prevalent in the hobby. The 400’s are fairly new, very expensive, and other little motivation to change from SE, unless you have my eyes ;) I have been impressed however with how closely the DE’s PAR performs even with a glass shield. I observed obvious faster growth with the 400DE 20K versus the 400W 20K Radium I was running in tandem.

Bulb selection/replacement cost:

The 250W DE offer a large selection at SE prices. Some of the DE bulbs are very efficient and have attractive spectral outputs. The 400’s are stupid expensive ranging from 90.00 per bulb to 120.00!!! ::cough cough:: Although the prices will likely fall if 400’s continue to sell and new 400 bulbs are made, but as it stands the selection is very limited if not difficult to find.

SE bulbs are EVERYWHERE in EVER form at EVERY price ranging from 40.00 to 150.00.

I have not identified a significant difference in the lifespan of SE vs DE bulbs

So in summary the SE bulbs IMO are appealing to a far larger audience than DE bulbs.

I hope this helps... There is plenty i didn't bring up or explaing in detail but I'll be around :D
 
I myself retro-fitted an Luminarc3 to support a 400W DE bulb and IMO this was a very successful implementation. Good color/PAR balance with a wide 24-30” square distribution that was pleasing to my eyes.

jlehigh did you use an Apogee meter to take actual PAR measurements with your LE reflector?

jlehigh said:
I have not identified a significant difference in the lifespan of SE vs DE bulbs
How was this determined, did you run actual test?
 
Hey Scooty,

Scooterman said:
jlehigh did you use an Apogee meter to take actual PAR measurements with your LE reflector?

I did not. I don't see the L3 improving the PAR output of the DE lamps so I am comfortable with Sanjay's spectral analysis. I do however know the L3 improves the size of the distribution.

Scooterman said:
How was this determined, did you run actual test?

Regarding Bulb life: Just my experience in watching the DE's run next to an SE for about 10 months. I have not had reason to replace either.
 
Did you try a lux meter at ten months to test them? This is what I see conflicting at times, most lights will burn for a very long time maybe several years but determining the point where they need replacing is to be left to either a meter or proven test, not by eye like I do :D LOL Thanks for the input & information if you ever get time I'd like to see a pic of the L3 with your DE's.
Good point about the glass used on de pendants, I don't like scraping the overspray either after getting build-up, also in the tight container they make some heat issues unless they have built in fans, then you still need to remove the heat from the exhaust of those fans.
 
Jlehigh,
Great post...covers pretty much everything. If I may reiterate part of your explanation...

The major reason 250 DE's are comparable to 400w SE's is the DE reflector.
Most SE reflectors are really just horticulture reflectors made to fit some light source. Spiderlight reflectors are an exception.
DE reflectors are more effiecient at reflectoing light and there is less of it lost than in most SE reflectors. Take away the reflector, and you really only have half your light source...
Diamond Luminarcs.....whole different critter. These were originally designed for horticulture and do an outstanding job of reflecting light. Probably the best thing out in the market for the purpose, but they are pretty large...

to answer your question Big T,
I run dual 250 DE's over my 58 gallon tank because I wanted to be able to keep anything that needed light, and I had heard that DE bulbs generally lasted longer. I dont necessarily believe that to be the case now...but when I was shopping for reflectors....
Nick
 
I'm glad some folks liked my post. Good confirmation I didnt waste my time :)

I have to come forward with a confession... I paid retail for a seaclone and I LOVE IT... of course it was decommisioned upon moving to my 280 but I even ran it for a few weeks along side a euroreef-style skimmer and it still pulled out a cup of gunk every 5 days :)

I think they have a bad rap for USER ERROR! lol!

Okay back on topic quick. Reflectors don't intensify light they can however distribute it differently. The DE reflectors make for a nice compact package with a good rectangular distribution. For some reason the similar SE pendants have a narrower oval distribution. BUT L3's win.

So this conversation has kinda moved into the heart of the 250DE issue, and it has more to do with the reflectors and maybe bulb shape than the bulb output itself.
 
John, I am sorry I havn't been back to this thread. You made a great argument for running DE's. I wasn't trying to say that they suck, or if you have them you wasted your money or anything. I was just kinda shocked when I was going thru all the spectral anlysis and par outputs comparing the 2 types of bulbs running on HQI ballasts. John you should consider writing a article ;)
 
I didnt get the "DE's suck" message at all. You had a very lagit question after looking at Sanjay's analysis. I dont even actually run DE's anymore! LOL Had I known what I articulated in my post I would not have got 400W DE's snf snf... Another grand bites the dust.. I have ZERO DE defensiveness in me. I actually think SE's are better suited to the masses for the reasons I mentioned. I appreciate the compliment though :)

BTW I found your skimmer thread on RC by chance. That thing just looks so darn nice.. When do you start on your own?
 
Thanks for the compliment on the skimmer, that thing is just kicking ass. I will make one for me eventually, but I am in no hurry. It is on the reef to do list :D
 
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