Sicce 2500 on different bodies?

[Poseidon]

I see LOTS of skimmers that use this particular pump, among them some very high end names. ATB, and Warner Marine, are certainly top of the line skimmers, and VERY well made. There are also other skimmers, MSX, Reef Octopus, and I am sure many others that are significantly less expensive. I am sure that the "others" are no where near as nice, made in China, less expensive PVC instead of Acrylic, loose fitting flanges, etc... However, at the end of the day, a skimmer is a vessel for air and water to mix right? How much more performance can I expect to get from a high end $600+ skimmer that uses a Sicce 2500, over a skimmer that is less then $300 and uses that same pump?

There are other differences too, the shape of the vessel, cone or traditional?

Then to really throw a wrench in the works, Reef Octopus has a "new" skimmer, the Hurricone Cat 1, and 2... They use the Askoll pump body that Bubble King does, and the shape looks like a hybrid of sorts, not a cone like the ATB, but not a traditional transition either.

I really want to make the "right" decision for my system, but there seems to be a lot of mud in my water at the moment! (Pun Intended!)

Thanks for any and all help!
-Mike

 

[luke33]

WOW Mike, you have just asked a ton of questions and unleashed a ton of shrapnel in the meantime! Lets breakdown the sicce performance first of all. You can't compare a cone to a cylinder when running one, on a cone the less head means more air. The atb, wm and swc generally pull from 30-34scfh as a pw. That is on a cone. All at 19-21w.

On a cylinder there's only the ati, swc extreme and octo extreme. The ati with mesh pulls round 35-40scfh, swc 35-45scfh, cv 25-45scfh. With a pw the swc does 24-32scfh, and cv does 13-17scfh.

The cone is superior to a cylinder or hybrid. There's no argument there. The transition and less head is better.

The BK pump is used on the swc askoll cone, cv hurricone, atb airstar.....etc. They will all perform similar but the cone's are superior.

I'd love to discuss any other questions you have so please ask : )

Hope that clears a few things up.

Luke

 

[Poseidon]

I didn't intend to "call out" anyone in particular, and certainly no venom is intended from me, however I couldn't figure out how else to compare these.

Luke I appreciate the air numbers, but to be honest, they don't mean a lot to me at this point. How does the volume of air pulled relate to skimmer base diameter, AND the NECK diameter? A cone skimmer with an 8" base, and 4" neck, with the Sicce 2500, how will it compare to a skimmer with a 9" base, and 5" neck? (I am just pulling these dimensions out of the air so to speak....)

Then would a cylinder with a larger pump and chamber be more effective then a smaller cone with a smaller pump? Is there a formula to use to determine this?

I am NOT trying to be a pain, but I would really like to learn.

 

[Poseidon]

Okay, a manufacturer was kind enough to provide me with this formula:

60-70lpm/sq in of neck area.

If I am right, "lpm" stands for liters per minute? So I can apply this formula by first converting scfh to liters, and then use (pi)r(2) to figure out the area of the neck. So if I take the scfh and multiply by 2.12, that should give me the lpm.

In my above example of a skimmer with a 8" Base and a 4" neck, the neck has 12.56 sq in of area, meaning the skimmer would 816 LPM of air? Something is definately wrong with my math here... Even the best numbers of 34 scfh only work out to 72.08 lpm, which way less then the 816 I would need. Hmm... maybe I will PM that manufacturer again?

 

[chend2]

you are confusing LPM and LPH

 

[Poseidon]

I don't think so... 1 LPM = .0361 SCFM so 1 LPH = 2.116 SCFH right?

 

[Poseidon]

DOh! I see my error now! 2.116 LPH = 1 SCFH! DOH!

 

[luke33]

More air means more surface area on the bubbles to bond with the doc's. The smaller the bubbles, the more surface area as well. Its not all cut and dry with neck diameter and an equation. The cone's can take more air vs a cylinder skimmer because of the transition. On a cylinder there's a taper from the body and then the neck, so the water to foam head kinda shoots up, unlike a cone. So the neck diameter means alot more to a cylinder. For 30-35scfh i'd go with a 4-4.5" neck.

 

[luke33]

There's no doubt an 8" diameter cylinder with a 4" neck will not compete with the similar sized cone. But will a cone outskim a large skimmer pulling alot more air. Thats the real quesion i hope to answer.

 

[Poseidon]

More air means more surface area on the bubbles to bond with the doc's. The smaller the bubbles, the more surface area as well. Its not all cut and dry with neck diameter and an equation. The cone's can take more air vs a cylinder skimmer because of the transition. On a cylinder there's a taper from the body and then the neck, so the water to foam head kinda shoots up, unlike a cone. So the neck diameter means alot more to a cylinder. For 30-35scfh i'd go with a 4-4.5" neck.

Ok, I get all the more is better with bubbles, but now I have a question about the SWC cone that uses 2 2500's on the same size cone as the 1 pump model. Won't the added air and water decrease contact time? At this point we are in effect pushing more water into a small chamber, which would force the water out of the cone.

 

[luke33]

Depends on how you look at it. The one pump model needs to be meshmodded to really work well on that size of skimmer. But anyhow, the one pump model is going to push 250gph waterflow and 32scfh of air. So dwell time is very long but air pull isn't spectacular for that size of chamber. With two pump's your only moving around 500gph water and your mixing up twice as much air with water so in a way there's twice the dwell time. 64scfh will outdo 32scfh any day of the week on teh same skimmer body....if the body can handle twice the air : ) The more unskimmed water that is pushed in the reaction chamber the more doc's there are to bond with the air. Dwell time isn't something i consider to be most important these days. I mean look at beckett skimmers dwell time and then look at there performance. IMO the skimmers are turning into efficient beckett's, meaning tons of air and low wattage.

 

[Poseidon]

Funny you mention Beckett skimmers, that is what I am looking to replace. I have a MR-2 that I modded into a recirculation model, and feed it from my overflow. I am only using one of the Beckett injectors, the other opening is being used for water input.

Anyway, I have added some LPS to my SPS reef, and I want to be able to feed more heavily, that is part of the reason why I want to change skimmers, the other part is power draw.

I do want to really study the way a skimmer works though, before I make a decision. I am really leaning towards a cone over a cylinder, but there are a few models that I keep bouncing around on, the ATB Econo, the MSX, and the Warner Marine. My total system volume is going to be about 150 gallons, so any of the 3 should be more then adequate, and I guess I can't really make a WRONG choice can I? So how do I decide?

 

[Poseidon]

Maybe I can get all 3? ROTFLMAO!

In all seriousness I wonder if a skimmer shoot out would work, kinda like you are doing, but with only one skimmer on the system at a time, and with measured food inputs for each trial period.

 

[Skimmy]

you said it, you really cant go wrong with the WM cone, SWC cone, or ATB econo, i would say the performance variance between the models (with one sicce psk2500) would be minimal.
any of them are going to skim the pants off your 150g.

i think though, off the top of my head that the WM and SWC are better because you can remove the bubble plate and clean underneath it, but not on the ATB econo. i had an ATI with a non removable bubble plate and it was aweful to have to clean

 

[senna]

try this http://www.skimz.sg/products/protein_skimmers/kone_subpage/sk2.html

or this http://www.chuisui.com/viewthread.php?tid=10570

 

[luke33]

Those are interesting cone's. I wonder if they will make it to the US and what price they will be.

 

[senna]

Those are interesting cone's. I wonder if they will make it to the US and what price they will be.

http://www.chuisui.com/viewthread.php?tid=10572

http://www.aquamarin.com.sg/productsDetail.asp?productid=1169

 

[Skimmy]

o.k. those skimz skimmers are damn sexy....lol
but the aquabee pump??? blahh...
at least you could mod it to 700lph air if the neck will take it

 

[luke33]

Those are the ab 5000's not the 2000's Mark. They do 1000lph air. Still though, you can get the sicce cheaper and it'll do 1000lph at 20w instead of 37w.

 

[luke33]

That skimz skimmer is large. 14.5x14.5x27" with a 4" dia neck. Its just kinda expensive 1300bux.