Skimming conversation

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Normally the smaller the bubble size the better and the longer the contact time the better...research suggests the air bubble suface can go on attracting protein and other wastes to its surface for up to 12 Mins !!! in controled studies.
We dont need to go this far!
The important thing with any skimmer today is their overall efficiency in removing as much protein etc from the tank water, some may produce tiny tiny bubbles (better surface area to volume ratio) and long contact times....yet their tank turnover may be less than is desired to prevent protein buildup entering the nitrogen cycle.

Yet others may just be the opposite having much less contact time in the skimmer itself yet turn the tank over so quickly as to actually be more efficient in terms of protein reduction in the main tank.

obviously to combine a very high turnover rate with max contact time requires the skimmer to increase in size to continually accomodate both these requirements. Hence many of todays skimmers can end up resembling skyscraper proportions.

What is desirable is something in between the two....in effect the fast turnover lower contact time is compensated for by the fact the water is circulated many times throiugh the skimmer before it begins to breakdown into the nitrogen cycle.

Todays Protein skimmers have progressed from ''The Air-Driven Skimmer'' to the ''The Venturi Skimmer'' to the ''The Needle-wheel skimmer'' to the ''The Downdraft skimmer'' and ''The Spray Induction skimmer''.....

All these skimers have a place in different tanks/volumes etc.

A simple and effective solution is the Venturi Skimmer....these skimmers are generally easy and cheap to run......using simple low power pumps etc.

The latest downdraft units however require very expensive and powerful electric consuming motors to produce the pressure needed to create the foaming bubbles at the bottom of the reactor tube. (often very noisy too!), yet are among the most powerful and efficient skimmers today. Anyone whos jet blasted their cars clean will know what i mean here!

personally I like the new models like the Aqua medic 5000 shorty which operate with the new venturi pump and needle wheel which chops the bubbles into millions of smaller bubbles in a short duration creating a nice milky white foam in the short reaction chamber....this skimmer is best suited for larger tanks with a very high turnover.....

Other skimmers such as the Deltec range are easy to clean.....a big plus in a heavy loaded system.

Anyone who is wanting to get a new skimmer should first condsider the tanks final max stocked condition.....then if your tank is 100gals...go for a skimmer that can handle 150gals.....although many skimmers quote max capacities.....these are often under ideal conditions...ie brand new clean skimmer/venturi and other considerations.

Remember its better to overskim than underskim.....

Anyway keep up the thread, sorry if i have gone on a bit But i love everything about skimmers...i even get pleasure out of watching them work!
.....skimmers have always and will always remain one if not the one of the most important forms of water maintainance in a marine tank be it reef or fish only....
.......................Colin.
 
Hey Colin great post!! I think I am going to turn my skimmer back over to airstone, from the multiple needle wheel that it is right now. When I built it I was going airstone, but got all caught up in the needle wheel thing, lol. I bought a air pump (with all the filters attached) and some ultra fine bubble diffusors (100 to 150 microns). The diffusors are easily cleaned when required but they should go for at least 6 months to a year before that is required.
The pump and stones will introduce 5 - 6 cfm into the skimmer (about 5 to 6 times as much as the models I listed above) and with the bubble size and passive mode I think it should be unreal.


mike
 
After my skimmer stopped working last night, I also gave thought to installing an air pump, not sure If the needle wheel is messed up or what, I will find out tonight, I may need an air stone also.
 
I wonder if adding width adds contact time in the same proportion as adding height??

Don
 
Mojoreef,

Run them both at the same time. Just drop the airstones in with the needlewheel pump :) I modified my PM and run both a ER needle wheel pump to recirculate and put an eductor on the feed pump. It foams pretty good, but like everyone I'm always trying to improve.

I'm in the process of building a new skimmer, or should I say modifying an existing skimmer. I have very limited space to fit one into the base of the tank. The largest dia. I can use is 6" and still fit it in. I'm taking a new ER 5-2 in sump skimmer I bough on Ebay, and converting it to an outside skimmer. I'm adding 18" of 6"dia. acrylic tube to the base for an overall height of about 35". I have added down draft recirculation piping inside , a Sedra 9000 pump with pin wheel for recirculation, and putting an eductor on another Sedra 9000 as a feed pump. I also bought an air pump and fine air stones to test at the same time... :lol: My luck it won't work any better than the existing, but fun trying.

ldrhawke
 
mojoreef said:
but the venturis muc be clean.

LOL - look what I learned about after returning from holiday. Venturi needed cleaning on my ER....

DonW said:
I wonder if adding width adds contact time in the same proportion as adding height??

Good question, Don
 
ldrhawke I have four pumps on the skimmer right now, two needle whell 3700 OR's and two mag 12's all with mazzies. When the air setup comes I am going to take all the pumps out with the exception of one mag which I will leave for circulation and use the mazzie for ozone injection (if the ozaone generator ever does happen to come on again, been a long long time,lol). The skimmer is feed about 1500gph and has a 2 foot square mixing box and then 5 feet of riser tube. That and I wet necked it.


Don if you are adding width to the mixing chamber then it would .


Mike
 
Excellent question Don!

The answer is yes!.............If you can create a whirlpool effect in a wide skimmer you effectivly lengthen the path the bubbles take before reaching the top....some of the big Multi pump Deltecs seem to show this rotation in the reaction tube.

The direct relation to lenght would depend on vortex speeds etc.

In effect you could have a very wide skimmer perform as well as a tall thin one by making the bubbles rotate a bit like a bout getting pulled into a whirlpool...it seems to go around for ages....measure the distance its travelled and its a good indication of the same effect using bubbles in a tube.

Of course the smaller the bubbles the mall their area in relation to their volume....thus their natural progression upwards would be hindered by induced drag thus they would stay in the whirlpool longer........

Ps .....the return pipe should be on the bottom not the top...duh!
as for the rest of the details the inlet is at the top and all the bits and pieces that are not present were left out for simplicity,,,....

Dont know how well a wide skimmer would function....maybe you could design one with an extra ''stirrer'' pump at the bottom to create more of a strong fast vortex whirlpool.....ehmmmmm...wow imagine all those bubbles whizzing around like a mini cyclone!!...longer contact time + more of the bubbles would encounter the same water over and over thus enhancing the effieciency etc.....anyway thats the theory!! lol.

I reckon you could creat very effiecient skimmers for larger tanks based on this principle.

See my Pic.........nice one Don...we could go halfs on the Patent..lol.. :) :?:
 
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I see what your talking about. I really like Mikes idea of going backwards in time to the air stone. I think one of the advantages of the other options is they can be much shorter to fit in a stand.
You would have to change the rotation on your design for u.s. import. We just cant have it going counter clockwise.

Don
 
Dont know if anyone has asked this....but given the fact that most skimmers are based on simple principles with relatively simple construction methods......Why are they so dam expensive?
Take the Deltec range...what do you have ...A tube with a few bits of pipes etc stuck to it with a big cup on the top all stuck onto a plain black base.....

Am seriously thinking of making my own.......i have already successfully modified a few to improve performance ......

Has anyone made a decent BIG skimmer along the lines of the Deltec 850..if so do they have any plans to hand..............Cheers..............Colin.
 
Lots of great bits of conversation.

I miss the large wooden airstones. I use to use them as tank decorations cause they made such a pretty cloud of bubbles rising in the tank.

Dave B
 
LOL Dave I remember those, great for xmas decorations to!!.
now days they have specialized membranes or hardent ceramic and so on.

Colin alot has to do with the price of the acrylic, it goes uponce a month and never comes back down. On the deltec and bubbleking I would imagine the cost of shipping and the cost of european manufacturing. The US folks are just staying with the the market, lol
check this one out when you get a chance
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4722&page=1



Mike
 
God! Can I be old enough to remember airstones in lift tubes of an undergravel filter with little skimmate cups that mounted on top of the riser?

Every week, remove the wooden airstone and scrape it to rejuvenate it....
Don't miss that stuff.
 
OK - this might be a dumb question, but I'm not the sharpest when it comes to equipment (slowly but surely learning). It was once posed to me that the water coming from my skimmer should be directed into the next compartment of my sump. I have a Euro-reef, and, as ER owners know, the water comes out and runs down the tube into the same sump compartment. Wouldn't this be a more efficient way to skim? Some of the water gets recirculated into the skimmer and will keep on getting cleaned. Or is it better to direct the "cleaned" water away from the skimmer so you aren't recycling part of the same water again? Maybe this isn't even a factor. :confused: OR maybe I'm not making sense?
 
I would direct it away so the only water being skimmed is from the main tank.....as you know the best inlet for the skimmer is near the surface were the proteins etc tend to accumulate heres an interesting point from an article on skimming

''It cannot be overstated; the best producing skimmers receive raw water from the very thinnest layer of surface water. In concert, these two critical limitations, the need for a static water level in the tank and/or sump and the focus on the delivery of surface-skimmed water, bring us to look very closely at the placement of water pumps on pump-fed skimmers. ''
From Our old friend wetwebmedia.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/proskimrart2.htm
 
Nikki,
This is what makes the little Turbo Floater t1000 do so well. Its really just a tiny needle wheel skimmer but is fed by the tank overflow.

Don
 
I have the skimmer set up in the first compartment on a little acrylic stand (to the recommended water height for the skimmer), right where the water comes into the sump. The water comes out of the skimmer in the same compartment, so that is where my question lies. I get a ton of nasty skimmate, so recirculating some water must not be that bad. Does anyone set up their systems to "double skim"?

Here is an image of my skimmer set-up....maybe a visual will help. I wouldn't want to change the outflow, as I figure ER designed the skimmer this way for a reason. But I'm curious as to whether or not any of this makes a difference?

4503sump.jpg
 
Wow...excellent ''Don''...and ''Mike''...inspired me...very professional skimmers......
Am impressed with both of you two guys!!!!
 
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