Skimming conversation

[Scooterman]

Mike I'm working on a modification to my TF1000 to add an air stone & air pump that I will run along side the needle wheel. I agree, the wheel is for efficiency, I guess sometimes I get carried away when it comes to that. I think I can easily add the air stone at the bottom center of the skimmer and let her rip!

 

[Zephrant]

Pinwheel pumps impart the energy somewhat differently. It causes tremendous shear and mixing forces between the liquid and the gas. It also imparts high energy in flow, possibly electron charge, and gives rapid pressure change from the suction to the discharge side of the pump. I believe, but I have not run tests, so cannot prove it, that this dynamic pinwheel energy input between the waste organics and gas enhances the skimmer efficiency compared to simply releasing fine bubbles. Just my opinion :idea:

The whole electron charge idea from a spinning, electrically isolated impellor is a bunch of bull. It fails the most basic believability tests- Electrons are not generated from scratch, the wheel can't be spinning off electrons without pulling them from some place, and there has been no measurements that indicate any kind of an electrical current is flowing in the motors, other than in the windings like any other motor. Any electrons magically coming from the (isolated) line in power would show up as leakage current, fail testing by UL and CSA (and the European counterparts), and trip a GFCI.

IMHO, I chose not to support manufacturers that generate reports of mythical like qualities and pseudo-physical properties to their products. If I can find a lie or gross exaggeration in one part of their documentation, it makes all of it suspect.

It also imparts high energy in flow…

High energy imparted in to the flow means heat, nothing more. Considering the density of water, the heat imparted per cc is far too small to have any effect on the organics contained in that cc of water.

That is not to say that the Titanium impeller might not be great, and even better than a plastic one. Just that if it is, it has nothing to due with some electron spin gobbly-gook.

Perhaps some of the perceived efficiency is due to the impellor blades striking the same air volume numerous times- trashing the air, which would effectively disturb the surface of the bubble numerous times as it made its way though the blades.

While I tend to believe the reports that the titanium skims better than plastic, I'm a little skeptical too. Lets see some independent tests- Same skimmer, same tank, same impeller, just one titanium and one plastic. If I saw a few hobbyist that can claim they did that test, and they mostly agree that the titanium is better, than I would believe it more.

Then again, when you pay $800+ for a pump with a titanium impellor in it, you are bound to believe it is better, even before it hits the water. No-one likes to admit they may have paid more than required.


Mike- Thanks for the part numbers- It look like about $200 for a pump and air-stones. Not bad, but not as good as I was hoping.


Zeph

 

[ldrhawke]

The whole electron charge idea from a spinning, electrically isolated impellor is a bunch of bull. It fails the most basic believability tests- Electrons are not generated from scratch, the wheel can't be spinning off electrons without pulling them from some place, and there has been no measurements that indicate any kind of an electrical current is flowing in the motors, other than in the windings like any other motor. Any electrons magically coming from the (isolated) line in power would show up as leakage current, fail testing by UL and CSA (and the European counterparts), and trip a GFCI.

IMHO, I chose not to support manufacturers that generate reports of mythical like qualities and pseudo-physical properties to their products. If I can find a lie or gross exaggeration in one part of their documentation, it makes all of it suspect.


High energy imparted in to the flow means heat, nothing more. Considering the density of water, the heat imparted per cc is far too small to have any effect on the organics contained in that cc of water.

That is not to say that the Titanium impeller might not be great, and even better than a plastic one. Just that if it is, it has nothing to due with some electron spin gobbly-gook.

Perhaps some of the perceived efficiency is due to the impellor blades striking the same air volume numerous times- trashing the air, which would effectively disturb the surface of the bubble numerous times as it made its way though the blades.

While I tend to believe the reports that the titanium skims better than plastic, I'm a little skeptical too. Lets see some independent tests- Same skimmer, same tank, same impeller, just one titanium and one plastic. If I saw a few hobbyist that can claim they did that test, and they mostly agree that the titanium is better, than I would believe it more.

Then again, when you pay $800+ for a pump with a titanium impellor in it, you are bound to believe it is better, even before it hits the water. No-one likes to admit they may have paid more than required.


Mike- Thanks for the part numbers- It look like about $200 for a pump and air-stones. Not bad, but not as good as I was hoping.


Zeph

I've got the same problem sometimes....I can't see it so still don't believe all that stuff about electons, neutrons, protons junk I learned about in engineering physics class.

I'm not saying the titaninum impellor is not a bunch of crap either, but I don't discount the possiblity of bubble charge having and effect on skimming.

Trying to attach a pdf file...don't know if it will work.

Doesn't attach......need to find Acrobat 6.0 to convert pdf. I'll be back...

 

[mojoreef]

Brent the top end bubble king and Deltec beng tested push about 1 cfm. If you were to match that to a air pump it would cost you $ 99.95 for a 1.5 cfm pump. then if youo went 1 large stone $ 19.99 or 4 smaller stones $ 18.45. Now if you added in your acrylic costs I think you could squeeze in under 4-5K no???ROFL Just joking.

Back in the old days it was all airstone skimmers, we all moved away from them because of the maintence of replacing wooden stones. Thus the birth of so many different ways to produce foam. On the air system I have put in my skimmer I am only gong by a tech friends and manufacturers word on how long they should last so no first hand Knowledge for me. I am commited (in to many ways ) so I will be the GP for seeing how long they really last. I would suggest to all to wait and see.

great conversation folks, lets kkeep it going.


MIke

 

[thetedinator]

Brent the top end bubble king and Deltec beng tested push about 1 cfm. If you were to match that to a air pump it would cost you $ 99.95 for a 1.5 cfm pump. then if youo went 1 large stone $ 19.99 or 4 smaller stones $ 18.45. Now if you added in your acrylic costs I think you could squeeze in under 4-5K no???ROFL Just joking.

Back in the old days it was all airstone skimmers, we all moved away from them because of the maintence of replacing wooden stones. Thus the birth of so many different ways to produce foam. On the air system I have put in my skimmer I am only gong by a tech friends and manufacturers word on how long they should last so no first hand Knowledge for me. I am commited (in to many ways ) so I will be the GP for seeing how long they really last. I would suggest to all to wait and see.

great conversation folks, lets kkeep it going.


MIke

Ssshhhh......we don't need Deltec, H&S or anyone else figuring out a way to make a $2000 airstone skimmer! LOL

 

[bernie lyons]

skimmers

I have tried quite a few skimmers in the last 15+ years in the hobby and I must admit i am a "sucker" when it comes to trying out "new" designs.
Here is a run down of what i've owned and what i consider a step forward as i go down the list :

=combi (internal) airstone skimmer
=custom built 6ft venturi skimmer
=klaes (german) asperator 5ft. skimmer
=MTC HSA-3000 (dual beckett injector) skimmer
=Deltec AP-1003 ( 3 X eheim/pinwheel ) skimmer
= the current skimmer of choice H&S (450-5 X eheim pinwheel )

It will be very interesting what the 12 skimmers comparison results turn out.
I believe that the pinwheels pull out the "stinkiest" of skimmate but the becketts do turn over the water more frequently but have a larger bubble size than the pinwheels. The becketts definitely need a large pressure
pump to make them work properly . Airstone skimmers require changing the air diffusers every month and do not circulate the water column nearly enough
in my opinion.
cheers
bernie lyons

 

[L-93]

charged bubbles would make a skimmer more efficient. There could be a possible flow of electrons from the pump through the titanium impeller to the water and out the skimmer back to pump. Titanium tips spinning in water/air has to cause enough friction to release electrons.

Wind blowing down mountains charges the air.

 

[mojoreef]

Hey Bernie Welcome to Reef Frontiers

Airstone skimmers require changing the air diffusers every month and do not circulate the water column nearly enough

Those were the old wood stones. the new new ones are said to be good for six months to a year, and then only a muratic bath and they are back in biz.

Mike

 

[RedEyeReef]

Hey Bernie Welcome to Reef Frontiers

Those were the old wood stones. the new new ones are said to be good for six months to a year, and then only a muratic bath and they are back in biz.

Mike

What is a muratic bath? I loved my old air stone skimmer in the 90's...

I like where this is going... Mojo, where are the pics?

 

[bernie lyons]

airstones

Thanks Mike for having me on board !
I haven't tried the latest ceramic stones but the early ones couldn't produce a small enough bubble size to skim properly.
i still have my MTC-PRO 6500 air driven skimmer and won't let it go just in case !!!
cheers
bernie :badgrin:

 

[mojoreef]

Good to have ya Bernie, I hope you spend some time with us.....besides thiers no hockey anymore anyways, lol. On the new stones the ones I got relase bubbles that are 100 to 150 microns, perfect for skimming.

Redeye ya the same way you clean your pumps and suck to get rig of calcium deposits, either muratic or vinager

Well dammit I forgot to turn the wet neck back on LOL SO thier is a bit of crud in the tube, but here is the look at the unit.

First pic is of the airstones in the skimmer box,notice the water line, six inches below the top of the box

Now a pic of the base where the box and first tube meet.

Now this pic is of the top of the first riser tube so about 3 1/2 feet up

Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Ok here are the bubbles in the neck which is two feet tall

And the the cup which is a foot tall and 10 inches round

And then the whole unit

 

[bernie lyons]

nice skimmer

nice skimmer Mike, which unit is this ? Looks like a reefconcepts 848 or is it custom made ?
cheers
bernie

 

[mojoreef]

No Bernie Its the bubblator 3000 lol, it s a diy job I built. Here is a thread on it

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4722

MIke

 

[Ger]

I am by no means someone who knows a a lot about physics, but doesn't the creation of static electricity depend on the material? As far as a charge in water having any impact on skimming, I wouldn't discount that. Why wouldn't a bubble charge attract certain elements?

 

[bernie lyons]

aquarium /skimmer

Mike i just saw your aquarium and skimmer project ,and i thought i recognized your system from several months ago featured on reefcentral !
Beautiful reef system indeed !!! I love it !
That is one hell of a skimmer you have , curious as to how much better it skims against the etss ?
cheers
bernie

 

[ldrhawke]

I don't need no stupid airstones

I finally it got built, tested, running, and installed Majoreef.......

It sure foams and mixes. The overflow is through a pipe that runs down the center of the unit and out the upper section. Also, I modified the std. ER slide tube level control, which is only for in tank skimmers so I can use the slide tune on the external mount. The slide tube is fool proof in setting it up compared to a gate valve.

My modified EurorReef 5-1. I'm please There are a number of photos so I posted it on my mac.com site so I don't take up lot of bandwidth here.

I built so I can slip in airstones to compare. I don't see how they could do much better, it's like whip cream inside the tubes.

http://homepage.mac.com/johnlaurenson/ReefTank/PhotoAlbum38.html

 

[mojoreef]

John you did some real nice work thier my friend, the unit looks good. congrates. I tell ya what when that puppy pushes foam up 5 feet instead of 5 inches you come see me just Joking.

Hey where did you get the commerical connect ??

Mike

 

[ldrhawke]

John you did some real nice work thier my friend, the unit looks good. congrates. I tell ya what when that puppy pushes foam up 5 feet instead of 5 inches you come see me just Joking.

Hey where did you get the commerical connect ??

Mike

The commercial connection was a std.PVC union w/ oring seal. I cut off both ends to make it thiiner and remove unneccesaary bulk for looks. It also allow me to disassemble for cleaning. It was almost identical the ER union when I got done.

 

[bernie lyons]

nice work

Nice work john ! the Super ER .
bernie