So Confused...

[aquariumdebacle]

Actually the way to look at a DSB is that it has a higher bio-load. Those bacteria, worms, pods, etc. are adding to the bioload; not reducing the amount of nutrients in the system. The reason that the recomendations for a smaller fish bio-load are because the other organisms are adding to the capacity of the system. More capcity is used for lower organisms at the expense of higher organisms. The carrying capacity of each individual system, while unique and occasionally maximized, is ultimately finite. You have to choose what you want and not exceed the carrying capacity of the system. A DSB system won't increase capacity it just directs it to something other than boring old fish.

 

[fishermann]

Idgy You have to decide what you want, some people have more then one tank for the above reasons. You can run a BB tank with soft corals also, nothing saying you can't. When you feed your fish there well be food that is not consumed, there well be fish waste, if you have enough you well most likely not need to feed your corals anything else, if the corals are not doing good you can supplement them with other food. Some corals even have to be target fed. Read some of the answers Anthony Calfo has written on the Reef corals forum about what some corals require for support systems. It can get very involved, but to just keep some fish, and your basic soft corals you can run a BB tank, it is when you get into the more specialized soft corals that you need more then maybe a BB well give IMO. I had fish only tanks since the late 70's and I did not think they were boring, there are some really cool fish looks wise and personality wise. I think wrightme43 uses a courser sand then most people use in a true DSB if he is vacing it, because a true DSB is made up with very very fine grain sand, like powder sugar and if you stir it and vac it you well vac it out. Remember a true DSB has a load limit, since it is not vaced, a SSB with courser substrate can be vac'd out as long as you can get to the bed of substrate either by moving the rock when you vac or by keeping it out in front of the reef, which if you have corals mounted on you don't want to be moving around to vac all the time. IMO it is a lot more work to have to vac a tank then to not have the detritus fall to the bottom to begin with. With proper flow it is kept in suspension until the skimmer can get it out of blowin forward to where it can be vac'd out very easily. There is no sure fire system, they all require good maintance.

 

[idgy]

I appreciate everyone's response to my questions. So it all comes down to doing things right and keeping up good maintenance?

 

[wrightme43]

My bad I failed to explain how I vacum it. I took a 1/4" dowel rod and cut 7" off of it. I rubberbanded it to my siphon hose. I stir the sand bed with it and let the hose suck up the junk that is put into suspension. This is after I superblast the live rock with a turkey baster. I then refill the system with fresh saltwater, and run 2 filter socks on my sump untill the water is crystal clear. I use aragalive figi pink. It has a particle size of 1-2mm. It does not seem to vacum out any critters as I see them swarming in my tank. On the larger bio load idea, I can see where you are coming from. In my mind I want this. If I have for example 6 top of the food chain fish, in a fish only with live rock system. Wouldnt I deplete the population of pods, very rapidly? It is my understanding that pods eat left over food, algae, and detirus. I would rather cycle them into my fish and back out as poop several times, lowering my input of phosphate, Instead of feeding my fish more, having the poop build up in the corners, and siphoning it out. I know that breeding pods and worms provide food for my corals, fish, clams, anemone, and feather dusters. On both sides of this there are very valid points. As long as your fish grow, corals grow, and your tank stays healthy whatever way you choose is just fine. If deep sand beds, and shallow sand beds didnt work nobody would use them. The bottom line to me is that they look a whole lot better than shiny glass with piles of poop between water changes. Now this is only my opinion. I am open to new ideas and will read and do my best to understand others without prejudice. Steve

 

[fishermann]

Steve I have tried to say in my own not very safisticated way that one way is not better then another, some I just think suit a particular setup better then others IMO. I was just trying to provide him with some alternatives to think about for what he wants to have, I am by no means an expert, I well leave that to Mojo or Kevin, but I really do love to try to help newbies who seem to really want advice and do it right. I try my darn'ist to try and give them good advice from my failures over 20 some years of mainly fish keeping, not again saying I am an expert. I am very new at keeping corals and am learning everyday from post by Mojo, Kevin, Bomber, Anthony, and Collin. As far as a shiny BB, it well shortly be covered by coralline algae, he won't believe how fast. 1 to 2 mm is large substrate for a true DSB system, as the ones I have read about and the ones I have had use sand the size of say sugar. I think if he wants to keep alot of fish and Softies, if he wants he could use your size of sand and just put it up in front of the reef so he can vac it like you do, just don't put it under the reef to where you can't vac it because it is to course and well collect alot of detritus if not vac'd out and well not operate like a true DSB does with the different layers of opric zones if that makes any sense, which I have been accused of by my wife many times, LOL.

 

[wrightme43]

Oh No John, I was not attacking you at all, man. If you got that impression I sincerly apoligize. I know you and I both only want to help. Sometimes what I think is funny is just doesnt come out the way I mean it. I am only offering my opinions. Yours are just as valid. I see things one way and others see them differently. That in no way shape or form means one of us is wrong. I follow you on the oxic zones. Please if you felt that way accept my apoligies. I love this place and learn from everybody. I am just a big fan of sand beds and really like the results they give me. Others dont want any sand in thier systems. Both ways grow corals and work if done properly. That is my main point. I belive there are benifits to sand beds and others dont. I am no expert myself. I am just a guy from KY that usually wears shoes, and still has most of my teeth. LOL Steve

 

[gobie]

I Was Windering Wouldnt A Mag Hot With A Micron Filter Work Really Good For Removing Detritus When Storming A Tank. Im Nottalking About Running It All The Time But Just Fort A Day My Be Two

 

[fishermann]

Well Steve I have talked to you on email a couple weeks ago and I do not in anyway think you are attacking me, I just want to give this person my experience and opinions and it is great that you have yours. In the end he well have to make up his mind and that well be just the beginning of a venture and I hope a very successful one as this is alot op work and learning. I just don't want to give the impression that this is an easy hobby, [ I hate that term hobby] since most of us kill these creatures, thinking they are pretty cool when we see them in a tank in a LFS and want to have that, and don't even have the slightest idea about how much work and learning there is involved.

 

[idgy]

"since most of us kill these creatures, thinking they are pretty cool when we see them in a tank in a LFS and want to have that, and don't even have the slightest idea about how much work and learning there is involved".
__________________
Which is what I do not want to do!

"Both ways grow corals and work if done properly"

So I could use about an inch or two of sand in front of the live rock and still have fish and soft corals?

How do you clean underneath the live rock or behind it, if you have your sandbed in front of the rock?

 

[FishyinKy]

1 to 2 mm is large substrate for a true DSB system, as the ones I have read about and the ones I have had use sand the size of say sugar.

Okay I have to jump in here. I too have a deep sand bad made up of the araglive pink fiji sand. Its been going for muliple years and while I have had various problems the dsb has not been one of them. (Electricity blah)
I think the big thing here is that different things work for different people. You just have to study the different things, talk to people who have used them. . .both good and bad experiences and then make your own decisions based on what you want to do. If you want a dsb or you want a bare bottom tank then you just have to figure out how to make it work and then how to do the maintenance for it. I posted earlier that I planned to go to a a very low amount of sand for my sps tank. That was my choice based on numerous discussions and readings with different people and different websites. I decided not to go barebottom cause I don't like the look of a bare bottom and I prefer my coralline on the back and sometimes the sides and not the bottom of the tank. Personal preference. Sorry got distracted there. . . The entire point of this is to do what you feel would be best for you and the corals you want to keep and then figure out (before you do it) how to do the maintenance and work to make it happen.

 

[fishermann]

Idgy There are different substrates, I would not use sand, I would use a course substrate say 2mm or larger, or CC like I said earlier. You have to run a spraybar or set of nozzles blowing forward along the lower back wall of the tank to blow the detritus forward, that is why you use coarse substrate and not sand, and you only add say a 1/2" in front. This is basically operates as a BB system with some substrate in front for those who don't like to look at the bare botton. It is purely there for looks, but well collect detritus, so has to be cleaned.

 

[WaterDogs]

Start with a sand bed of the depth and size that appeals to you keeping in mind its weak points if trouble shows up. I have a preference for the Southdown brand of sand if a substrate is used.

Dwaine

 

[Elmo18]

I have a preference for the Southdown brand of sand if a substrate is used.

Dwaine

I prefer Southdown as well About the same stuff as the Aragamax...etc etc...

- Elmo

 

[gobie]

To Answer Your Question About Cleaning By The Rocks, I Use A Turkey Baster Give It A Few Light Squeezes And Its Good To Go. Plus I Use It For Cleaning Rocks Too.

 

[dnjan]

material deleted ...
Also the sand used is saturated with phophates prior to entering your tank and when the bed goes anaerobic and the sand begins to melt these Phosphates are leached back in.
... material deleted
Mike

Mike - I'm having a bit of a problem with the above sentence. Do you have a source for the information that the sand is already saturated with phosphates while still in the bag?

 

[wrightme43]

I wanna know too. I just cant make my brain wrap around that concept. I am totally open to learning more. Steve

 

[MikeS]

Here's a bit on that...

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/ocd/sferpm/millero.html

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Mike - I'm having a bit of a problem with the above sentence. Do you have a source for the information that the sand is already saturated with phosphates while still in the bag?

Hi Don. Its a natural state, it doesnt matter if its harvest from the ocean or dry from a mine, although mines tend to have higher nutrient counts from run off. Remember the seel the same sand from the same mines as Phosphate rock to farmers for fertalizer, do a search on phosphate rock for that.
To answer your question here is a study done by Marino on how the phosphate absorbsion process happens.

http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/groups/jmc/fla-bay/FBay-WebPage.htm


MIke

 

[gobie]

sorry guys i wrote the reply and even i'm confused must have had a lapse or some thing. all I can say is derb