Some plumbing for Sabella

[mojoreef]

Ok Sabella here is the first draft for the closed loop plumbing for your glass tank.

The concept is to have one 1 1/2 input hole for your closed loop ( I am asuming that you are going to have a pump for it that has a 1 1/2 out and input), run this pipe down to the input of th pump, Make sure you drill the hole for this to where you can easily get to for cleaning.
Coming out of the pump you will run 1 1/2 piping up the back of the tank, to just above the top edge. From thier attach a tee. Take one side of the tee and continue the 1 1/2 pipe to a point where you want to enter the tank. At this point attach a 90 elbow pointing towards the front of the tank. The attach a 1 1/2 slip by 3/4 slip adapter. Now run the 3/4 inch pipe over the edge of the tank top and then 90 down into the tank, go about 6 inches down into the water, from thier a tee, then go about 6 inches out from each side of that tee and attach another 90, but on this 90 make it slip on the side that goes onto the pipe and then threaded on the outside, make it so the 90 points to the front of the tank, do the same on the other side. The concept would be to be able to screw locline into the 90's so you can adjust them.
Do the same thing on the other side of the tank. This shold take care of the upper and middle flow for your setup. The tunzes you have will take care of the bottom flow.

If you like this idea we can move onto the balance of the plumbing


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

OK Sabella here is round two.
The colsed loop design is the same but here is the idea for the balance. You will have the sump under tha cabinat and the refugium in the basement. The concept is to take one drain line from the overflow and bring it straight down to the first compartment of the sump. the second line is going to feed the refugium, so plumbing straight down to the refugium in the basement. I want you to put a ballvalve on the drain line that goes to the refugium. that way you can dial in the amount of water you want to go down thier. With two 1 1/2 drains you will be fine and the amount you restrict will just go straight to the sump. On the return of the refugium just have it go from the last compartment of the refugium to in between the first and second baffle of the sump. For your skimmer have it take water directly from the first compartment of the sump and then also return it to between the fist and second baffle. Per any kalk or calcium reactor you can pull the water for them from the middle compartment of the sump and return them to the last chamber of the sump. Your sump return pump will be attached to the last chamber and take the water back to the main tank. I would suggest just having it come over the top of the tank and use its flow to break the surface tension of the water.

 

[Sabella]

Plumbing

Mike

Thanks for the diagram it is awesome and starting to make good sense.

In relation to skimmer would it be best to drill the sump on the left side and draw water from the first compartment then have it flow back to the sump? Does this require another pump on that side for the skimmer? Will there be enough water from the main tank in the first compartment of the sump if I use a Iwaki 100 to drive the duel becketts?

The other question is where is the return from the sump or refugium or both to the main tank? Am I confusing myself I can’t see how this will work?

Thanks otherwise the diagram is very self explanatory and much appreciated.

Sabella

 

[mojoreef]

You can have the pump for the skimmer anywhere as long as it is plumbed so its getting water from the the first compartment of the sump. On the iwalkie 100 thats a tough call, if its short it will just suck some water out of the next chamber. Its one of those one you will have to give it a shot.
The return from the sump to the main tank I didnt draw in, its basically goign to come off the last chamber of the sump and go back to the tank. Just plumb it so it gts back to the main tank, even if it means just turning over the top of the tank. On the return from the refugium I drew in the pump, it takes the water from the refuge and dumps it back into the second chamber of the sump, Not back to the tank.


Mike

 

[Sabella]

Hmm in so the Iwaki 100 is not a good option?

On the iwalkie 100 thats a tough call, if its short it will just suck some water out of the next chamber. Its one of those one you will have to give it a shot.

What do you mean by if it is short?

Thanks

Sabella

 

[Zephrant]

Mike- You have the tank draining in to the sump and the refuge, then a pump going from the refuge to the sump. That pump will not be able to be balanced against the drain water from the main tank. You've created a system where one open loop feeds a second open loop. If one of them changes minutely, you will get water on the floor.

I suggest that you have the refuge gravity-return to the sump if possible. If not, you will need two return pumps- one from the sump to the tank, and the second from the refuge to the tank.

Zeph

 

[mojoreef]

yea its kind of an odd ball with the refugium under the sump. I figured with the refugium drain being regulated by a ball valve you could dial it in pretty good with a 300 to 400 gph pump. the sump having a full 1 1/2 drain line would tak any extra water if the refugium drain plugged. it would dry out the refugium though. I guess the same thing would happen if you went straight from the refuge to the tank no?
Where am I missing the problem Brent, I am tired and on meds right now, LOL

Mike

 

[Zephrant]

Lol- You are correct so far- The system must be balanced perfectly though, it is not "inherently stable" to minor changes over time. i.e. without the refuge, it does not matter how much water the sump return pump moves, it will always balance out as the tank will overflow as much water as is put in to it, which will all fall to the sump.

But the water coming down to the refuge will not be perfectly constant- If a snail starts crawling though the down tube, the water flow will be a little less, leading the refuge pump to run dry.

Another things that can throw it off of perfect balance would be the refuge pump not being perfectly consistent over time- buildup on the screen, or calcium deposits will slow it down, leading to a refuge overflow.


I've seen people attempt systems like this before, and it can run for a while (hours, until 2am, etc...) but it is just too touchy to trust over time in my opinion.

One of my earlier suggestions is not valid either- having two return pumps, one from the sump and one from the refuge has the same issues- Two open loops that can feed each other, allowing one to get all the water while the other goes (almost) dry.

I guess my only suggestion is to get gravity to work for you in some area:
- Put the refuge above the sump so you can overflow to the sump from it.
- Or allow all the sump water to overflow to the refuge, and pump from the refuge back to the tank.

Sounds clearer?

Zeph

 

[mojoreef]

Yea I here ya, the refugium wont dry just the last compartment will. I think the best case is to switch locations between the refugium and the sump. I did make that suggestion before, but thier was a reason to not be able to do that.

Sabbela can we re visit that??


MIke

 

[Sabella]

Yea I here ya, the refugium wont dry just the last compartment will. I think the best case is to switch locations between the refugium and the sump. I did make that suggestion before, but thier was a reason to not be able to do that.

Sabbela can we re visit that??


MIke

Ok I guess this is a more difficult situation

In terms of my tank set up I have a custom 59.06"L x 29.13"W x 27.56"H Glass tank which will sit on a 59.06"L x 29.13"W x 31.5"H cabinet.

Due to the large amount of equipment (Skimmer, CR, KR, Chiller, Various pumps) and the need for a significant size sump and refugium required to properly run a reef aquarium I thought it would be best to run some of the equipment under my flooring in what i refered to as a basement area however I will have to crawl on my hands and knees with around 40" of room from the floor to the ceiling.

Because of the very restricted access to the basement area I thought it would be best to run the refugium tank there as rather than the sump which would need to contain all the return pumps, skimmer, CR , KR and RO top up etc.

I originally intended to run a combined sump/ refugium under the tank however thought it would be more beneficial to run a 60-70 gallon sump and 70-80 gallon refugium. Having the larger sump and refugium and getting access to the sump with ease (rather then having to crawl under my house) is the reason I wanted to run the sump and refugium in their respective places.

Sooooo I guess I need some advice. If the refugium wont work under the sump is it ok to swap these around??? How often will I be needing to crawl under my house to access my sump?? Can the Skimmer/CR/KR run from the Refugium effectively if it was under the cabinet with the sump in the basement???

Please post your views.

Thanks

Sabella

 

[mojoreef]

Ahhh yes that does sound like a hassle for sure. Is thier a way to run the refugium along side or above the tank??

MIke

 

[Sabella]

heh not unless I remove our television and I don't think that will go down too well

 

[mojoreef]

OK then you have the following choices.
1> try to dial it in the way it is currently plumbed
2>get rid of the refugium altogether
3>go with a combo ref/sump


MIke

 

[Zephrant]

I'll second the combo ref/sump idea too. That sounds like too much trouble to get to equipment down there, so I would not put anything there. I've learned that if it is not easy to check, it does not get done.

You might try a small hang-on-tank refuge like what CPR makes too.

Of course you could always get a flat panel TV, and put the refuge behind it...

Zeph

 

[Sabella]

Of course you could always get a flat panel TV, and put the refuge behind it...

haha the way I am going there seems to only be enough room for a 40" TV now

There may be one other option if it can be plumbed and supported which is to create an area above my cabinet including the lights to run the refugium tank with the sum remaining under the main tank. I could add some support to the custom cabinet which would allow for a substaintial refugium tank but would require some plumbing advice.

It would also mean to pump from the sump to the refugium I would be pushing water upwards over say 8 feet.

Otherwise if I was to combine the sump and refugium under the cabinet what would be the best way to design it and what would be the best splits given the room under my cabinet noted above?

I guess I could still run the chiller in the basement???

Thanks for the comments

 

[mojoreef]

On the pump from the refugium you are not going to need much. 4 to 5 hundred gallons an hour going through a refugium is good enough. You want as much contact time in their as possible. The plumbing would be basically be a pump taking water out of the 1st compartment of the sump and then a simple drain line coming off the refugium on the other end to drain back to the middle chamber of the sump or directly into the tank, your choice. On the location of the drine line in the refuge what ever height you make it, will be the water level in the refuge, so keep that in mind.
On the combo refugium/sump take a peek at Mntdewmans (Chuck) he has one and it has worked well for years.


MIke

 

[Sabella]

Ok so with the refugium above the main tank there should be no problems even though there is a considerable height for the pump to overcome?

What would happen should the refugium pump fail, and interms of the drain line (simply using gravity) what would be used to keep the amount of water going into the refugium balanced with the amount of water leaving the tank?

Thanks

Sabella

 

[mojoreef]

Sabella you control that with the size of the Bulkhead. If you have a 1 1/2 BH it can handle around 2000gph, 1 inch around 1200gph So just make sure the pump wont put more water into the refugium then the BK drain can hadle and you will be fine.
If the pump to the refugium fails then the refugium will drain to the level of the BH and then stop.

Mike

 

[Sabella]

Ok that make sense Mike.

So putting this all together, I simply change the position of the refugium from under the sump as originally thought to above the sump (enclosed above the hood).

The closed loop would remain as shown in your previous post Mike?

The sump would remain under the cabinet with the refugium either returning to the main tank or to the middle chamber of the sump.

Can the chiller still be plumbed from the sump or main tank to the basement and back to the centre chamber of the sump or main tank??

Other than that I thinK I am fairly set.

Thanks

Sabella

 

[Sabella]

I have drawn and attached what I hope is a final plan for my tank setup and all the various components.

Mike and others it would be great if you could guide me as to your thoughts. Will it work? Am I likely to encounter any problems etc

All feed back will be much greatly appreciate.

Thanks

Sabella