Spray Bar

[c0mputernick]

Im going to be adding about 90lbs of live rock to my 90 gallon tank over the weekend and have been researching alot of do it yourself projects and came across a spray bar project, which got me thinking....do i need one?
here is the project:
http://compudoc97.com/SWNDIY9.html

Do i need something behind the live rock making current? Ive heard of putting a powerhead behind the rock on either side to make current behind the rocks, but im assuming there will be dead spots. what is the hazard of not having alot of flow behind the rocks?
do i just bury a pump connected to this spray bar or does it come from the sump somehow?

I really want to get the best setup i can from the start and not waste alot of money in the learning process.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Nick

Also, what are some good ways to increase flow in a tank without powerheads? I have a large sump, with a 1000gph pump with a 1200gph (rated) overflow box. so i cant really add another pump in the sump to pump up more water than my overflow can handle, i currently have 5 power heads for flow and i think thats a little much and really would like something that does take up as much space and not add to the heat of the tank as much.
I could add some pvc piping like for the spray bar behind the rock, and possibly from the return, but where would the extra flow come from? would it hurt to spilt the line coming from the return pump into 2 return lines? would that have any affect on its performance?
for example in this setup,
http://compudoc97.com/SWNDIY9b.html
i see 3 return spouts, would this all be coming from one sump pump? would it be good to have 2, one in each corner pointing towards one another diagonal across the tank?
ive been googling alot and seeing alot of differnent setups so im kinda confused as to what i should go with and what works the best.
thanks for the help.
Sorry for all the questions, im very new to this.

 

[Haole]

Welcome to RF, Nick!

Well... Spray bars are high maintenance. They’re great for dispersing flow but eventually get clogged up and need to be cleaned. I know because I happen to use one in my tank. Mine is at the top pointing downward towards the backside of my rockwork. I used to have one running along the bottom behind the rocks a long time ago but it was always a pain in the butt to take out and clean. So in turn it got neglected, so I wouldn’t suggest doing that. It’s best to obtain good random flow around all areas of your reef structure to eliminate dead spots where detritus can settle and decompose. Especially in hard to reach area’s like behind your rockwork where you can’t easily siphon it out. Some people like using these Hydor FLO Rotating Water Deflector’s on their powerheads to create random flow. Maybe you could try one of those behind your reef structure. But like you had mentioned, I’d also like to eliminate the amount of powerheads in my tank as well. One of these day’s I plan to do an over the top closed loop set up.
This will explain what I mean...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/short.htm

 

[Krish]

Welcome to RF!!! Hope you enjoy it here As for your questions, let's see what I can add...

Im going to be adding about 90lbs of live rock to my 90 gallon tank over the weekend and have been researching alot of do it yourself projects and came across a spray bar project, which got me thinking....do i need one?

As Rob already suggested, I agree on the spray bar. I've heard a lot about the maintenance required with them and therefore, never personally tried one. There are other more effective ways to go about adding flow IMO, but I guess it's best to wait for more feedback by the others who have had experience using one to see what they think as well

Do i need something behind the live rock making current? Ive heard of putting a powerhead behind the rock on either side to make current behind the rocks, but im assuming there will be dead spots. what is the hazard of not having alot of flow behind the rocks?

The reason why you don't want any deadspots is because if waste/detritus (fish poop, rocks shedding etc) is allowed to settle in any areas and allowed to rott, it will degrade water quality thus shooting up nitrates etc which can fuel nuicance algae to grow and so forth. By having sufficient flow in the tank, it will keep all the waste in suspension in the water column to either be skimmed off, removed by a mechanical filter or used up by corals.

do i just bury a pump connected to this spray bar or does it come from the sump somehow?

Most of the time you will see a spray bar attached to a closed loop where an external pump will suck water from the tank and return it back to the tank through the spray bar. I hardly ever see them attached to a powerhead, but I'm sure it can be done

Also, what are some good ways to increase flow in a tank without powerheads? I have a large sump, with a 1000gph pump with a 1200gph (rated) overflow box. so i cant really add another pump in the sump to pump up more water than my overflow can handle, i currently have 5 power heads for flow and i think thats a little much and really would like something that does take up as much space and not add to the heat of the tank as much.
I could add some pvc piping like for the spray bar behind the rock, and possibly from the return, but where would the extra flow come from? would it hurt to spilt the line coming from the return pump into 2 return lines? would that have any affect on its performance?
for example in this setup,

The best way to add flow to a tank without using powerheads is by doing a closed loop. There are 2 ways to go about it. One way is you can drill the tank and do your closed loop that way with the pumps sucking water out of a bulkhead through the tank and returning water back to the tank through another or you can do it over the top of the tank where you don't have to drill anything. Here are a few examples...

In this setup, my closed loop using the 2 pumps added a little over 3,000 gph to my 38 gal tank. If you look at the first shot, you will see where the pumps suck water from the tank, and then where the returns are.










If drilling is not an option, here is a link to how you can plumb one over the tank without having to drill. In this link, Marc used a SCWD wave maker, but not necessary. I just wanted you to get an example of how it would be plumbed

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html
http://www.melevsreef.com/how_to_build.html

and here's how I did one for an old tank of mine

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13588

i see 3 return spouts, would this all be coming from one sump pump? would it be good to have 2, one in each corner pointing towards one another diagonal across the tank?
ive been googling alot and seeing alot of differnent setups so im kinda confused as to what i should go with and what works the best.
thanks for the help.
Sorry for all the questions, im very new to this.

Well, as for output locations, you will have to mess with it some unfortunately. Every tank will be different especially with how the rockwork is setup, but typically how you mentioned with one nozzle on either end would be a good start. That's what I did on that 38gal I posted pics of above. The pic showing the 2 outputs up top with the Y adatpors on it had outputs at the bottom of the tank as well in the same locations. With using the lockline attachments (the black tubing you see with the nozzles attached to them) I was able to point the flow anywhere I wanted. I eventually found my best setup not using the Y adaptors up top and just had a single nozzle coing out of each of my bulkheads which totalled to 4.

Just a few thoughts for starters. Hope they helped and good luck!

 

[returnofsid]

I also like Mel's HOB Closed Loops system and will be plumbing one in to my 75 shortly!! That'd be a great way to increase flow and you can either use the SQWD system like Mel's Link shows or divide your return 3 or 4 times. In my tank, I'll probably use the SQWD system. Also, as mentioned above there's the Hydor Flo units. I have 2 of them and love them. They create really nice random flow...however, they are a lil' large and hard to conceal.

 

[mfinn]

Not all sprays get clogged. I've been using them for 10-12 years and have not had a problem.
My last tank had one in it for about 8 years and it was still working fine when I sold the tank.

 

[Haole]

That is a valid point, Finn. True that it all depends on the length, size/diameter of the spray bar and the number of, and diameter of holes. As well as the amount of flow going through the spray bar. But... It will slowly decrease in performance as organics build up inside the walls of the spray bar and pump being used. Mine happens to be a smaller diameter size bar with small diameter holes, so it tends to build up with organics rather quickly.

So let me re-phrase my previous post... Spray bars can possibly be a high maintenance feature.

 

[mfinn]

Also, the use of kalkwasser/calcium for a sps type tank will speed clogging.
My tanks have always been soft coral tanks, so regular water changes have always been enough to resupply calcium needs.

I try to use atleast 3/4" pvc pipe ( new tank has a 1") will elongated holes.
On one spraybar I made 1"x1/8" long slits.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I have the tank Finn used for years, the spraybar is still spraying: I dose calcium for the SPS system!
The trick is to ensure your holes are large enough and sufficient number.

 

[c0mputernick]

Thanks all for the nice links and replies. Drilling is not an option for me since the tank is already running, but ill keep that in mind my next one ;-)

I bought 2 new pumps, a magdrive 2400 to replace my 9.5 in my sump and a 3600 for my closed loop system i made. I have run into many problems i dont know how to deal with, so for now ive just upgraded the sump pump and built the rocks in a mound in the center and get very nice flow around them.

My problems:
1. The pumps will not "suck" water. I tried to design the sump pump to be outside the sump and suck water in-line up a piece of pvc and down the other side to the sump and then to the tank for return. for 2400gph, it couldnt suck water up a foot of 1" pvc. dont know if thats normal or not but i was disappointed non the less.
2. The pumps are VERY loud. My 9.5 was very quiet in the sump and I was very suprised at the noise level of the 24 and 36 models. I designed my closed loop system system with the pump hanging on the back, (had to use an aqua lifter to fill the intake pipe as per problem #1) then i finally got to turn it on and its the loudest clanking noise ive ever heard! I dont know how anyone uses these pumps! My tank is in my living room and it was just way to over bearing for that room. So needless to say i have taken out the closed loop system and am just running the sump at the moment until i can figure out a way to make use of the other pump. I even played around with putting the pump in the tank (which i really didnt want to do) and even that was very loud, who knows what stress that could add to the fish in the tank.

All in all i thought i planned it out well and did alot of research online with different setups and looked and read at the things posted, but was not pleased with how it turned out. I wish i knew those pumps were so loud before i ordered them.

Anyone have any suggestions that might be able to get this going for me or an alternate solution for a loop system, or other system to add flow? I cant have it running from the sump because the 2400 is almost overflowing the tank as it is and the overflow box is wide open. CPR CS102. It is suppose to be rated at 1200gph, so either that isnt accurate or the magdrive 2400gph pump is losing 1200gph with the 4ft head pressure from the pump, the box says 1700 at 4ft, but with those numbers im losing half my gph! but i installed a valve just in case i needed to cut the flow back anyway, so it really doesnt matter.

Thanks for any light you can shed on this for me.

 

[Krish]

My problems:
1. The pumps will not "suck" water. I tried to design the sump pump to be outside the sump and suck water in-line up a piece of pvc and down the other side to the sump and then to the tank for return. for 2400gph, it couldnt suck water up a foot of 1" pvc. dont know if thats normal or not but i was disappointed non the less.

If the pump is elevated above the water level and you don't prime the pump first somehow by filling the plumbing with water, even at 1 ft, you may not get it to suck. Any way to get a photo of how it is set up? That way we can know which direction to point you in to get things working properly.

The pumps are VERY loud. My 9.5 was very quiet in the sump and I was very suprised at the noise level of the 24 and 36 models. I designed my closed loop system system with the pump hanging on the back, (had to use an aqua lifter to fill the intake pipe as per problem #1) then i finally got to turn it on and its the loudest clanking noise ive ever heard! I dont know how anyone uses these pumps! My tank is in my living room and it was just way to over bearing for that room. So needless to say i have taken out the closed loop system and am just running the sump at the moment until i can figure out a way to make use of the other pump. I even played around with putting the pump in the tank (which i really didnt want to do) and even that was very loud, who knows what stress that could add to the fish in the tank.

I see you figured out how to prime the pump As for the noise, that is typically associated with those pumps. I had a mag24, ran it for 5 minutes and got rid of it Very loud and usually will add a lot of heat. My buddy had a mag18 and you couldn't hear it, but the mag24 was loud for me so I can imagine the 36! Some things though you can do to quiet it down are padding underneath them to help reduce vibration noises and also, if you used the wrong size plumbing (too small) or if you have air trapped in the plumbing, it will make them much louder, but are loud to begin with IMO. Maybe you might need to look into another brand of pump (Sequence possibly) that can be used in it's place using basically the same plumbing... Like I mentioned, if you have some pics of the layout, it will help us alot on knowing which direction to point you in

 

[c0mputernick]

thanks for the reply, ill work on the pictures.
What are the quietest pumps out there that have the same flow as the magdrive 24 and 36 models? that can be used operating outside of the aquarium? like hanging on the back or setting outside the sump?

 

[Krish]

People seem to be happy with Sequence pumps, ampmaster and I have used the Quiet One pumps which were really quiet. The only problem I had with it was they added quite a bit of heat to the tank basically causing my chiller to run alot, so I'd look into the Sequence pumps. That would be my choice if ever I needed a really good size pump