Stirring The Bed

[ethanriley]

I hope I am not stirring the pot by starting this one, but after recently four months ago taking down my tank to rearrange and reusing my sand bed I had several reactions:

1) Yes I did get a cyno bloom, but several small water changes later over a period of two weeks and one 48 hour dose of chemi-clean the following happened.

a) I got much better corraline growth
b) I had a huge surge in Pod population (which my hermits quickly decimated again )
c) My nitrates dropped to unreadable
d) And my algae outbreaks of diatom, cyno or otherwise are gone.
e) MY SPS seemed to love the whole idea as I got tremendous polyp extension and less periods of sliming

I also increased my flow at the bottom of the tank by moving my SEIO right to the bottom. which continued the affect of stirring

In my unscientific opinion I think I found something here and I want to explore it further. Only disapppointing thing is that I don't have before and after pictures, but Krish can confirm the change was quite remarkable. I continue to stir using one of my kids plastic beach rakes and or the power head and what I find is I am noticing a significant of amount of fauna in the DSB that I hadn't seen before. Anybody got any cautionary statments or thoughts.

 

[ethanriley]

Oh I did forget to mention when I dismantled I did blow off my rock heavily with a power head and when I drained off all the water I left enough in the bottom of the tank to properly stir all the muck acumulated in the sand into solution which i promptly siphoned off and disgarded

 

[ldrhawke]

If you continue to rake it on a regular basis it will probably continue to benefit your tank by releasing bacteria and keeping the bed from forming heavy anaerobic pockets. The problem is if you only do it periodically, you risk releasing a lot organic anoxic material into the tank when you do it. This can cause a lot of damage to more sensitive coral and fish. It normally is not a good idea to stir a well established bottom alot.

 

[ethanriley]

Thanks the key is consistency! Do you then think that if you continue to rake say the top portion I don't rake all the way to the bottom that it is in fact a good thing. See I always listen to the opinions posted hear but I also look at what I see here in the sea at home. The sand particularly around well established reefs always is undulated with little hills caused by good flow near the bottom. It stands to reason to me that we should mimic this in the tank as well.

 

[ethanriley]

Also doesn't doing what I did dispose of the theory that I see often perpetutated on RF and others that you can't reuse your sand bed when you take your tank down with one foot note that immediately I took it down I put it right back up?

 

[ldrhawke]

Your observation as to how the ocean can stirup the bottom is right on, but it has a tremendous advantage in volume to dissipate what it releases compared to our small tanks. Get a few Gobies or bottom shifters and they will do the job for you everyday. If you did it regularly and shallow it will release a lot bacteria for the coral to feed on.

 

[ldrhawke]

Also doesn't doing what I did dispose of the theory that I see often perpetutated on RF and others that you can't reuse your sand bed when you take your tank down with one foot note that immediately I took it down I put it right back up?

I have never heard that theory. In fact I have heard just the opposite as to getting old substrate periodically from other tanks to help seed new bacteria. I wouldn't hesitate to use an old sand bed that your flushed alot of the old trash out of and then allowed to reestablish settle for a few days before adding fish. It will keep you having to start the nitrogen cycle all over.

 

[ethanriley]

Excellent thanks for your help. Its worth noting when I ever I do stir the skimmer goes crazy and what a bunch of muck it pulls in a short space of time and the SPS seem to relish it because the polyp extension is tremendous so they must be feeding on the bacteria as you point out. I am going to keep doing it. Maybe I should start to do it in the fuge as well?

 

[Krish]

See I always listen to the opinions posted hear but I also look at what I see here in the sea at home. The sand particularly around well established reefs always is undulated with little hills caused by good flow near the bottom. It stands to reason to me that we should mimic this in the tank as well.
__________________

Don't forget too though that the ocean is HUGE with gallons upon gallons of water and layers upon layers of sand as well as the most diverse forms of life. To try and mimic that in our tank wouldn't really compare IMO. I kinda feel you have to go with what works for you in your tank. Just like people with BB systems...Nothing at all close to "nature" or natural, but yet, have some of the most amazingly healthy corals and marine life as as well as stable systems. Then again, you have those with ssb's s as well as dsb's with the same results. I liked Mike's (mojo) way he put it to me when I got back into the hobby..."Get rid of it (waste)before it ha a chance to break down or cause a problem. If you stir your sand bed regularily and do water changes regularily then all you could have IMO is success, because anything trapped in your sand bed etc would be removed before it has time to degrade water quality. Just my thoughts though...Not necessarily correct.

Also doesn't doing what I did dispose of the theory that I see often perpetutated on RF and others that you can't reuse your sand bed when you take your tank down with one foot note that immediately I took it down I put it right back up?

IMO The thing with your tank was in terms of a dsb, your sand bed wasn't all that deep as most dsb's are (6 inches or more) in your display. But on the same note, your sump was kinda deep which wasn't stirred (if I remember correctly) So I guess if you stirred up you deep sump's sand bed as well as your tank at the same time(which are both pretty much the same size per gal...36 gal display and 30 gal sump) then you may have had a problem then IMO. Your sump may be doing all of the work with the denitrification in the sand bed and then don't forget, you added lighting over the sump the same time and started that on a photo-period as well...

 

[ethanriley]

Thats a good point Krish! Any other thoughts

 

[Krish]

Thats a good point Krish! Any other thoughts

Hmmm...You added curbs lately too that you said have been cleaning up like crazy janitors as well and you installed all new bulbs last month because the spectrum on the old ones were almost gone. Just the bulb change alone cause your corals to come out! A lot to consider with your tank as so many changes occured in a short period of time...

 

[Krish]

Andrew...You know how I am, so don't take my posts the wrong way here . I just don't want new comers to the hobby to go ahead and stir their sand bed to have these same types of results you are experiencing before considering all the factors that took place in your tank. A lot of changes took place in your tank in a small fraction of time, which means there is a lot to consider as to what infact got your tank up and running smoothly...

 

[ethanriley]

Yeah Krish I hear you but keep in mind my tank has been operational for almost two years now. The polyp extension and the retarding in Cyno came well before the light change. The break down of the tank also came well before the light change. But you have valid points. Also I was considering that if you are on the advanced forum you have some experience not just to be lead down the golden path One comment you made earlier that I meant to respond to was not mimicking the ocean. I don't quite agree with your synopsis because there are many things we do mimic in our tanks about the ocean. We mimic by doing water changes as a substitute for millions of gallons of water we filter with biological and physical filters. We keep the water at the top of our tanks agitated to assist gas transference there are many things we mimic. Stirring the bed as John pointed out as long as you do it consistently feeds corals puts pollutants and detritus into the water column to be removed by the skimmer and or water changes. This is my theory if you are in favor of DSB versus BB you have to assist the bacteria in nutrient breakdown by constantly providing movement and creating surface area for the bacteria to multiply. IMO BB only works for those reefers who are very detail oriented and disciplined in their maintenance to dare I say anal proportions ( I have a friend like that somewhere...what was his name again?!!!) As or me I don't see me siphoning detritus on a weekly basis. Stirring the sand with a rake emptying my skimmer I am there.

 

[ethanriley]

Also as witheverything we discuss here ALOT of what we do is dependent on the bio-tope we create. All of my corals come from shallow areas with heavy water movement and often turbulent conditions especially during winter. this may be an adverse condition for some corals say softies or lagoon corals not used to turbid conditions. I guess again the caution to all neewbies is know what corals you have know what conditions they came from whether in capativity or from the wild and try to replicate as near as possible those conditions. final comment the protein skimmer was invented for reefers like me who over supplement over feed and hate water changes

 

[mojoreef]

Doing a little stiring on just the top 1/2 inch of the bed can help liberate detritus and the bacteria that is associated with it. This does make great food for the corals (BB theory) and also helps you keep the top layer aerobic and not to overloaded. In saying that as John says you must becareful not to go to deep as we dont have anywhere close to the amount of water needed to dilute it.


Mike

 

[ethanriley]

thanks Mojo, I appreciate the reply. By the way I was looking at your gallery the other day and swore I saw a heniochus (poor mans morish idol) (pardon the spelling) I had always heard they wern't reef safe?

 

[Krish]

Previously posted by ethanriley
I don't quite agree with your synopsis because there are many things we do mimic in our tanks about the ocean.

I didn't realize you posted here until today (when I was looking over some of your posts) so I figured I'd reply to the above statement you made which you've taken the wrong way. I quoted below what I had posted which was to try and mimic nature wouldn't compare. I didn't say we shouldn't mimic nature because it wouldn't work. It's just an obvious fact that our little boxes can never compare to the real deal "nature" no matter what we try to do. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression here. I didnt mean that. If we don't try and mimic nature we're screwed, but in our efforts, we will never compare

Previously posted by Krish
To try and mimic that in our tank wouldn't really compare IMO

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Previously posted by ethanriley
Yeah Krish I hear you but keep in mind my tank has been operational for almost two years now. The polyp extension and the retarding in Cyno came well before the light change. The break down of the tank also came well before the light change

Also, I was just curious about the above and below statements becuase they seem to confict with each other a bit about when or what actually caused the cyno to go and your polyps to extend? It seems from the below quote, the stirring of the sand bed led to polyp extention and loss of cyno (part "d" and "e"), but (if I'm reading correctly) above quote, it doesn't seem that is the case and happened way before the new lights were added, before the breakdown of the tank, stirring of the sandbed bed etc...Just curious here which one actually did it for you for future reference or if I've mis-read or mis-understood something. Thanks

Previously posed by Ethanriley
I hope I am not stirring the pot by starting this one, but after recently four months ago taking down my tank to rearrange and reusing my sand bed I had several reactions:

1) Yes I did get a cyno bloom, but several small water changes later over a period of two weeks and one 48 hour dose of chemi-clean the following happened.

a) I got much better corraline growth
b) I had a huge surge in Pod population (which my hermits quickly decimated again )
c) My nitrates dropped to unreadable
d) And my algae outbreaks of diatom, cyno or otherwise are gone.
e) MY SPS seemed to love the whole idea as I got tremendous polyp extension and less periods of sliming

 

[mojoreef]

Ethan their are two different types of Heni's. one is bad and the other is safe. I cant remember the name but it starts with a D, lol. You can tell the difference between the two by where the black strip ends on the lower tail fin


Mike

 

[moortim]

ethanriley, how often have you been stirring the sandbed? I have been playing around with different ideas for my substrate and might see what that does for me. Also, do you stirr the dsb in your sump or just in your tank?

Tim

 

[ethanriley]

I stir my sand bed just prior to each water change which since I went with natural saltwater is twice weekly. I never stir the sump bed with the overflow on, but I do stir it on a bi weekly basis. To define stir I only rake the top half inch of the DSB. I blow my rocks off at the same time.