Strontium Levels in Oceanic Salt mix

[Curtswearing]

Coralline algae grows (or is impeded) by the following things:

Balanced Calcium/Alk
Low Phosphate levels
Lighting photoperiod
Lighting Spectrum
Species of coralline
Tank Flow
Age of rocks in a closed system

There are so many variables that comparing from one tank to another can be difficult. It very well might be the Sr but I'm not convinced.

The word "trace" in TRACE elements gives us a clue. If Sodium is typically around 11,000 ppm and Mg is 1280 to 1350 ppm and Ca is 360 to 410 ppm in NSW and Sr is 7 to 9 ppm, in the big picture, Sr. is not a big deal.

Strontium can be BAD if you add too much so be careful. It should remain a TRACE element.

We add so many trace elements to our systems that I do water changes to REDUCE my trace elements to more normal levels and not the other way around.

 

[NaH2O]

It is a trace element that is best added in liquid form to your tank (i.e. Kent Marine brand Strontium)."

FWIW, salt companies (ok...all companies) are in it to make money. I believe Oceanic and Kent Marine are now owned by the same parent company. I haven't checked on it, but I'm fairly certain. Hence, the supplement recommendation of Kent Marine.

 

[Illusion]

I have been working with Randy already ont he issue and Habib from Salifert came back with the Resolution is not that great on the Sr test kit to accuratly measure the amounts to be precise enough to be all that valid... Habib was talking with the the Technical side of Oceanic reguarding another issue and asked about the Sr levels as well this was what was stated to him "I also asked about strontium and I was told that they do not add it intentionally to the salt. Right now he could not give me details about the strontium concentration (impurity) in their salt."

Here is the Topic on RC in Randys forum where I have been discussing it there as well..
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=400888&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

And I believe you are correct about Kent and Oceanic being the same company.. there was a 10k form filed stating to that matter..

HTH<
James

 

[Illusion]

And just following up I found the other Topic where Habib was talking with Oceanic and we were dealing with the same person so I think that I could respect and believe the answer that I got back from them...

James

 

[Witfull]

i think its funny that they consider Sr as an impurity. how can they claim that their salt is the best thing since NSW when they dont test for levels of ingredients.

i havent switched salts, i was thinking of using Oceanic, but the retailers here decided to mark it the same as other salts or more. i have been using Kent and get 150g for $55 where Oceanic is $45 for 90g.

 

[Illusion]

Man Oceanic around here is 44.00 for a 200g bucket.. I have seen 1 LFS in particular mark it $89.99 pffff yeah right LOL

Hopefully I have sparked some interest with Randy and maybe others to get this salt tested... As a side note.. I did notice one thing wierd.. I had a frag I just i mean about a week ago glued down to a piece of Rubble... I have been watching it daily as usual and noticed that just since last night encrusted to the LR... It could be just a coincidence but who knows.. I could also be imagining things as well LOL.. Maybe Sr levels are more important that people think.. Maybe we all need to invest in an ICP machine so that we can do Extreme tests on whats in our water weekly LOL Wouldnt it be nice to have that kind of money LOL

James

 

[Witfull]

if i had that kind of money i would just pump fresh NSW into my 50,000g tank continuously....

 

[NaH2O]

I have yet to read the thread you linked....I will get to it. Curt brought up a great point. There are many factors that are involved in coralline algae growth. Perhaps the chemical change from switching caused a problem. Did you switch your salt gradually, or go from one brand to the other?

Wit, just to clarify, I didn't see that Oceanic claims Sr is an impurity - maybe I missed it?

I can't reiterate enough the need to test before the addition of supplements. How do you know you even need to supplement? Randy states it often in the articles I have linked. He also gives some other sources of Sr that are from things we use, like foods and calcium reactor media. I envision hobbyists overdosing their tank (not saying you are or did - just an example) and blame it on something like a salt mix....XYZ killed my tank. This happened to mojo when he gave out a mush recipe - the guy came back and said the mush killed his tank....forot to mention he used antibacterial soap to wash out his blender prior to mix. Without testing for sure what the elemental levels are - you can't say any salt mix is low in anything.....unless you have the test results.

I'm not trying to frustrate you, and I hope you can see where I am coming from. I don't want to see this thread start a landslide of people blaming things on a salt mix without looking at the picture as a whole.

One other question I have is why your Mg is so high?

 

[mattseattle]

both his Mg and Ca are a tad high to be in alignment with NSW at his salinity.

 

[Witfull]

from the RC thread.

I just spoke with Oceanic , a lengthy call, and the reason I called them has to do with calcium levels in their salt and the Salifert test kit.

I'll post another thread about it.

I also asked about strontium and I was told that they do not add it intentionally to the salt. Right now he could not give me details about the strontium concentration (impurity) in their salt.

So a reconfirmation of what some others have said.

 

[DonW]

i think its funny that they consider Sr as an impurity.
i

I think they consider strontium an impurity of one of the chemicals used in the manufactureing process. Just a guess, I would assume the calcium is brought up by calcium chloride. Unless they are using lab grade 100% pure it will have trace amounts of strontium among other things.
Is this enough for our reefs?? I pay $50 at spectra labs in Tacoma for a full spectra-analysis of engine oil. They can tell you what you want to know.

Don

 

[Scooterman]

I'm tagging this wave to see what turns up!

 

[NaH2O]

Don, I suspect you are correct with the use of the term impurity. Just to add about the term "impurity"....RHF uses the term when talking about Sr in calcium supplements.

Randy Holmes-Farley in the Advanced Aquarist Article linked Previously
The other major source is calcium supplements. Many of these supplements contain strontium, either by “accident” (as in the case of calcium carbonate with impurities of strontium carbonate that is used in CaCO3/CO2 reactors) or because strontium is intentionally added by manufacturers.

I can't help but wonder in the grande scheme of things how important dosing Sr is? 8ppm when talking about a salinity of 35? Should we start being so concerned for all trace elements in our mixes that we are testing and dosing them? Like I said before...all ASW brands have their drawbacks. Maybe the best thing is to make our own salt. That way we can be sure to have all the levels we desire and balance the salt accordingly.

 

[DonW]

. That way we can be sure to have all the levels we desire and balance the salt accordingly.

Personally I dont think we should make this hobby any more complicated than it already is. I suppose if you had a lab test a batch of water and compare it to say The Red Sea, we would find some obvious differences.
Since the salts we use are not pure or lab grade there is really no way to get EXACTLY the same results each time. I'm sure with todays technology some lab could come up with the perfect salt. Just think of how much that would cost. My guess would be 20+ times what we pay now.
The Kent Sr additive bottle claims it is necessary for coraline growth. I personally take this with a grain of salt and would rather not have to purchase an entire pharmacy for my reef.

Don

 

[Illusion]

My Mg levels and Ca levels are higher than NSW values.. FRom Habibs (Salifert) found out is Oceanic based the levels of their salt on 1.021-1.023 which would give you a lower amount... However when you mix it to 1.026 or 35ppt it will give you about 10% higher elements...

Also When I changed over salts Just as I have in the past I changed over 10% every week and after a month switched over to my Full water change schedule.. So yes I did change slowly..

I am just mearly trying to get to the bottom of something that has stopped... If it was just in the main display I could attribute to the lights... but it has stopped growing in the Fuge as well as on a completely different system (55g agressive tank)... So Therefor I look at well there has to be something with the salt as all other variables can be ruled out in some other way... I have setup a 5.5g nano for testing purposes and started with a known factor of 4ppm of Sr.. As soon as the water clears I will be adding more LR... Hopefully in the mean time Maybe I sparked enough interest with RHF and Salifert to figure out what the Sr levels are in this salt... For now I wont be adding it to the Reef anymore and will just be using my test nano...

As for most people Myself included I feel that a GOOD salt mix should contain everything you need such as Iodine, Sr, trace Elements.. As long as your either doing Regular water changes or running good Reactor media you shouldn't need to worry about any of these things.. In ARM media it contains all of these in balanced proportions so in theory you will be adding them on a daily basis hopefully in the amount they are used... but lets say that Because Oceanic now owns Kent that they want to make up more money my dropping out certain Elements such as Sr or Iodine just to make their product more Marketable then what is one to do? WE already know that the Average Sr in IO is about 15-17ppm.. At these levels Sr must not be bad in the Reef as these are what most peoples levels are... LOL there is so many things that are debatable in this hobby LOL... I am just trying to overcome a little problem that has occured since the switch over to Oceanic..

James

 

[mattseattle]

well if you want to sell your Oceanic let me know I'll buy it. I'm definitely a big supporter of the salt since I've had a lot less problems since switching to it than I did while using IO.

 

[Illusion]

I wont be selling my Oceanic out... I like the salt either way.. I am an avid supporter as well.. I am just trying to get to the bottom of the issue... I have had alot worse problems with other salts LOL... Even If I cannot get to the bottom of it now I can Experiment with my nano and go from there with the Sr.. Most companies are going to put a "Safe" dosage amount on the Sr supplement so that way people are not going to blame them for an overdose.. Since there is only 2 test kits on the market to test for Sr the odds of people dosing Sr without Testing are very likely.. Odds have it someone is dosing Sr right now as I type... Since Salifert has already stated "A strontium measrement is not that accurate and if you have 4 ppm which is ennough for growth it might not show up in the test because that is approx.
the noise in that test kit." Its more just to make sure you are not hitting a very high number... I still believe do not add anything you dont test for however I made an Exception for this one for the sake of testing purposes... I plan to buy a Salifert and Seachem Sr kit as soon as finances allow... I will be sticking with Oceanic until an S15 report is published and a Different salt is proven "Better" for the tank.. IMO Oceanic is still the best on the market at this time..

James

 

[NaH2O]

James...I really wasn't trying to be so argumentative. I think you are posing good questions and have obviously done some good leg work.

My point of debate..... a new hobbyist is researching salts, and stumbles upon this thread. I can only imagine what must be going through their head....."don't buy Oceanic because it doesn't contain Sr and that makes coralline algae grow".

I highly respect RHF and Habib, so any developments that come about please keep us updated.

until an S15 report is published and a Different salt is proven "Better" for the tank

AAAAAGGGGHHHH, another S-15 report....everybody run!! If a wide range of salt brand testing is done, lets hope it is by an independent company that doesn't have a vested interest in any of the salts being studied.

 

[Illusion]

My point of debate..... a new hobbyist is researching salts, and stumbles upon this thread. I can only imagine what must be going through their head....."don't buy Oceanic because it doesn't contain Sr and that makes coralline algae grow".

I understand where you are coming from... I just want to add that I have tried just about every salt out there and so far I have only found one that I like... And that would be obviously Oceanic... I would highly Recommend Oceanic to anyone still LOL.. Coralline or not.. In a way its less work for me as I dont have to scrape it... However to me when something all of a Sudden stops it makes me wonder why... I am sort of speak a Perfectionist.. I like things to be Perfect... LOL I should just drive to the Beach 30m away and take the boat out and Lug a couple 30g containers back with NSW on a monthly basis LOL.. If only LOL..

another S-15 report....everybody run!! If a wide range of salt brand testing is done, lets hope it is by an independent company that doesn't have a vested interest in any of the salts being studied.

highly Agreed...

 

[Scooterman]

Still using IO, maybe one day I'll try another again but with the Ill affects I had the last time switched, I don't like changes unless it is necessary, I think IO has cleared up what ever problems they may of had a while back, only once or twice I had minor batch problems of cloudy water but for the most part it test well within normal ranges.
As far as algae growth, even if you think you never changed anything in your system, changes internally that aren't so obvious may be occurring, so before blaming a salt mix, take some time to make sure that there aren't other things going on, it may take some time maybe weeks, before you can discover the real problem, never do drastic changes unless your about to loose everything you own & even then take it slow.