Sump flow and turnover rating. How is it done?

[Krish]

As for refugium's and such, as Mike stated, not all macro algae needs saturation time, like cheato for example. Other then cheato I cannot think of any algae that dose better in slow flow vrs high flow. I am even skeptical that cheato does better in slow flow. I had a lot of flow running though my old elevated refugium and the cheato grew at a rapid pace. I harvested from that refugium every week to keep it in check. The flow was around 1000 gph on that setup.

A good example of high flow on algae would be the Algae Turf Scrubber method. (ATS)

Frank

Hey Franke...I wish I could find the thread for you, but Anothny Calfo said here a few times that he loves to run chaeto as a small ball tumbling in a high flow area in the sump. He says that's the best way for it to be used. Some may differ and the only reason I could say why it may do better tumbling is that all sides can get exposed to the light rather than just the top portion if it sat pretty much stationary in one spot.

 

[Frankie]

Yep, it's the light and the water flowing over that grows it so well from my experience. Maybe someone interested can find out where in the ocean Cheato comes from and post it? What type of location and placement is it found? I bet it is not from a lagoon or passive location.

Who knows! Fill us in!

 

[mojoreef]

It doesnt really matter what the manufacturer rates it at or what this or that person might suggest, IT IS a basic function of what the drain hole can handle. So roughly

2 inch bulkhead will flow approximately 1350 GPH
1 ½ inch bulkhead will flow approximately 975 GPH
1 inch bulkhead will flow approximately 350 GPH
¾ inch bulkhead will flow approximately 165 GPH

Not these are approximate and done with a straight shot to the sump and use some form of duraso pipe. One thing also to keep in mind is the teeth on the overflow they also can have restrictions on how much they can handle.

Just one note, is to not keep it to close to its max, one little opps and it can be messy.

but Anothny Calfo said here a few times that he loves to run chaeto as a small ball tumbling in a high flow area in the sump

Yep chaeto loves a fast flow


Mojo

 

[Krish]

Just one note, is to not keep it to close to its max, one little opps and it can be messy.



Mojo

This is what frightens me. You can have algae build up on the teeth of the overflow restricting flow and if you are too close to the maximum flow rating of an overflow, you are screwed!! It could even happen from a fish that died and was big enough to block enough of the overflow to prevent full flow going to the sump. When I had that 38 gal custom built, I talked to Tom (BigT) about it first and told him I wanted my overflow to easily handle about 1200 gph of flow as I wanted some head room to work with using a 950 gph pump and so he gave me the drain size to go with along with the height and spacing the teeth needed to be to achieve this. Also recommended the coast to coast which I did. I had alot of head room

 

[Krish]

Here Frankie, I'll add some visuals here for the thread. This was my high flow tank. High flow internally (a little over 100x turnover rate) and high flow sump on a very small sump. This was my first tank I kept corals in and they did really well.

Tank was a 38 gal (24x18x20) with an external coast to coast overflow. The teeth were actually laser cut. What Tom had me do was 1/4 inch slots cut into the tank, 3/4 inch long, spaced 1/2 inch apart from each other and 1/4 inch down from the top of the backwall almost all the way across the back to give good surface skimming. I'm looking back to my old thread to get this info. Unfortunately, I can't find what size drain I used.


This shot gives you an idea what the internal flow for the tank looked like. I utilized 2 closed loops for all of my flow (what you see up top, I had the exact same thing down low in the tank). Surface aggitation came from the return lockline you see sitting there in the front without the lockline head/nozzle on it. I chose this picture so you can see the teeth for my overflow as I described it above. This had no problem handling the 950 gph return minus whatever head loss I got running in through a chiller before it got to the tank.





Shot of the back of the overflow





Surface aggitation from return pump. I always only used my return pump to provide surface aggitation. Real flow for the tank itself, always came from another source and never relied 100% on the return to be a major factor in flow for my tank






Now the importan part. My small crammed up sump (20L x 14H x 14W = 16.9 gallons completely filled). Operational, I didn't use that much and had 950 gph running through this thing. Water just whizzed through here :lol:








As mentioned, this was a high flow tank especially through the sump. I was still able to accomplish what I needed to and never had to battle with phosphates, nitrates or nuicance algae in this thing. This setup may not work for someone else, but it worked for me. Just as good as it did for me on a bigger tank running a much slower flow rate through a much bigger sump. This is why I say it can go either way...Atleast for me it can so far.

 

[Peppie]

You guys are making more work for me. After reading this thread so far I have come to the conclusion that I need to have my Chaeto rolling. The flow thru my odd-ball fuge will not provide this rolling action. So the flow thru the fuge will be approx, 200gph. I think I will add some curved baffles and a powerhead plugged into a timer. I will set the timer to come on 6 times a day for 10mins or so. Or would it be better to keep the powerhead on 24-7? Seems like I could save on heat,wear and tear, and power. If it were on the timer

 

[Frankie]

You guys are making more work for me. After reading this thread so far I have come to the conclusion that I need to have my Chaeto rolling. The flow thru my odd-ball fuge will not provide this rolling action. So the flow thru the fuge will be approx, 200gph. I think I will add some curved baffles and a powerhead plugged into a timer. I will set the timer to come on 6 times a day for 10mins or so. Or would it be better to keep the powerhead on 24-7? Seems like I could save on heat,wear and tear, and power. If it were on the timer

That's fine Peppie, see if that works being on a timer. Keeping it rolling 24/7 with the water that falls into that chamber should be more then enough to turn it. I see no reason to add power heads just yet. The curved baffles are an interesting idea! Kinda like the jellyfish tanks?

Jellyfish tanks have to keep rolling for them to survive for some reason. Never studied to far into that end of the hobby yet, so I never fully understood that concept, but your idea sounds similar to what I have seen on JF systems.

 

[Krish]

Just a thought (as I've never used chaeto) but wouldn't it tumble easier on a bare bottom sump as opposed to it sitting on sand in a sump or either way it rolls just as good as the other?


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[akunochi]

I'm still trying to understand why everyone is sooooooo obsessed with the cheato tumbling. Mine grows just fine with no tumbling.

 

[Krish]

I'm still trying to understand why everyone is sooooooo obsessed with the cheato tumbling. Mine grows just fine with no tumbling.

Haha!! Guess it is just a preferred method. Now why is yours growing so good MR!!!! Where are all of these excess nutrients coming from that is feeding them??? Just messing with ya :lol:. Guess it is like anything...Some people prefer one thing some prefer another. Some prefer sand and others hate it. If it works for you than run with it, but the logic behind chaeto tumbling and all sides receiving light does make a lot of sense. You never know, if yours tumbled, it might grow faster.

 

[mojoreef]

It doesnt need to tumble, In the wild it tends not to holdfast and thus becomes free to rock back and forth with tides/waves and so on. So I guess somewhere decided that its natural movement was to tumble.

For me the BEST place beyond a dought is to put whatever algae you have ontop of the sand bed in the refugium (even pin it with a rock if you have to). With the understanding of a dsb as a nutrient recycler, this makes it perfect for working hand in hand with variuos forms algae.


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

but the logic behind chaeto tumbling and all sides receiving light does make a lot of sense.

Maybe yes maybe no if you think about it. If you are growing algae for just the sake of growing algae then exposing it to as much light all the way round makes sence.. But if you are using it to absorb nutrients (which is not its primary function for growth) then I would say you might be better off not doing that, as the stuff closest to the light would provide photosythesis and thus the nutrients produced by that , but the lower section of the plant could play more in the direct absorbsion of nutrient through cell migration?? make sence?

Mojo

 

[Krish]

Maybe yes maybe no if you think about it. If you are growing algae for just the sake of growing algae then exposing it to as much light all the way round makes sence.. But if you are using it to absorb nutrients (which is not its primary function for growth) then I would say you might be better off not doing that, as the stuff closest to the light would provide photosythesis and thus the nutrients produced by that , but the lower section of the plant could play more in the direct absorbsion of nutrient through cell migration?? make sence?

Mojo

Yes it does. . Algae's were never my thing. I just relied on a skimmer, phosban reactor, a bit of carbon, a lot of flow and good husbandry to keep my nutrient levels down. Also I never over stocked my tanks. I had 4 small fish in a 75 gal tank so every system is different. I did use algae at my advantage during the cycling/maturing stage which I let grow and just exported it weekly but once the tank balanced out, the light went off of the sump and never used one ever again.


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[Frankie]

Acctually, the whole tumble thing started because the cheato grew so well, the underside of thick mats of it in refugiums was dieing off from lack of light.

The worry was that this dead matter then would return to solution what was soposed to be harvested. Basically it is a way of keeping mass without light deprivation.

It doesn't need to tumble if your havesting it corectly IMO. But the tumbling allows the lasy reefer to slack up on that chore a bit more

 

[akunochi]

Honestly it grows the same reason my ATS grows so well....I have very fat fish and feed every other day usually LOL. Sue me.

 

[Krish]

Honestly it grows the same reason my ATS grows so well....I have very fat fish and feed every other day usually LOL. Sue me.

You'll hear from my lawyer!! :lol:. This is the most interesting hobby. So many ways to do things and be successful. I think my new saying will be, "just do what you like. It probably will work!"


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[akunochi]

LOL No kidding. I remember talking to one of the Beginners yesterday. He ordered pure dry rock and thought he would ave to wait about a year for his tank to be ready after curing cycling etc. I told him I boiled bleached and sun dried ALL my rock...threw it in the tank. Waited about 6-8 weeks and started stocking. Now my rock is purple COVERED in sponges and pods and feather dusters worms etc. He couldn't believe it.

Then he asked me how often I tested my water....to which I laughed. I don't test unless everything starts to go wrong.

 

[mojoreef]

"just do what you like. It probably will work!"

I remember talking to one of the Beginners yesterday. He ordered pure dry rock and thought he would have to wait about a year for his tank to be ready after curing cycling etc. I told him I boiled bleached and sun dried ALL my rock...threw it in the tank. Waited about 6-8 weeks and started stocking. Now my rock is purple COVERED in sponges and pods and feather dusters worms etc. He couldn't believe it.

Then he asked me how often I tested my water....to which I laughed. I don't test unless everything starts to go wrong.

Ohh mannn you had to post that, lol See I would have to be honest that if I saw either of those I would have to make comment on it. Although I do or agree with most of that I would be compelled to call you out on that.

On a side note, yes their are many ways to run a reef system, but when it comes to the biological end of the game it has to follows natural biological processes or its BS. Now each process can be bent or alter, but they will have counter effects and these should be explained. For me anyways I tend to like to make sure I explaine the reasoning behind what I am saying, not just I do it and it works, but why I do it and how it effects everything.

Mojo

 

[Krish]

Ohh mannn you had to post that, lol See I would have to be honest that if I saw either of those I would have to make comment on it. Although I do or agree with most of that I would be compelled to call you out on that.



Mojo

Haha! I do hope you know I was joking with that comment! :lol:. Seth can speak for himself lol.

With that said, I am a firm believer in there being many ways to do things in this hobby and be successful like skimmers for eg. Some run them and probably can't do without them and others see no benefit. I do agree though that there are certain things you can't get around like the biological aspect of it and building up the necessary bacterial colonies and finding that right balance. For me, I know with my old setup using liverock, it took 9 months for me to put in my first coral because that's how long it took my tank to read un-detectable nitrates without any signs of algae being present to absorb it. The tank completed the initial cycle in no time (the point at which I didn't read ammonia or nitrite anymore) which was close to about 6-7 weeks give or take, but it took nearly 7 months for me to balance out and work off just 10ppm of nitrates. All tanks are different. Some may take longer if they keep adding in livestock and not allowing the tank to adjust among many other factors and then some may do it a lot quicker. Too many factors to include there. Now Seth boiling rocks and stocking in that short time is just crazy!! Not something I'd personally suggest going on my experience especially if you are talking about corals. The tank needs time to mature.


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[akunochi]

No I stand by it. Honestly give them just left and right nudges and let them go. They will learn MORE by experiencing basic failures (not catastrophic) than by not making their own mistakes.

Now the way Krish phrased it may be a little extreme.