The cheato ONLY method of reefkeeping

[Paul B]

Daytonaconnecti, for the dumb answer. That is almost correct. If you can provide a place for algae to grow that is more conducive to it's growth, the algae will grow there before it grows in your tank. Of course, if there is not enough room there, it will also grow in the tank. But the good news is that a tank can only support so much algae, it is self limiting. I build the trough with a few things in mind. It is very close to the lights, the water is only a half inch deep, the water flows very fast and there is a plactic screen at the bottom which is "infused" with cement. Algae loves cement.
All of my algae grows in the trough and (so far) none in the tank.
The trough has only been in there a little over a year which is not a good test but my reef has been getting cycles of algae for at least 25 years, this is the first year where none of it was in the main tank.
A refugium will do it but it is hard in a refugium to provide better conditions for algae and you would also have to light it. Also in my trough, I just roll up the screen and remove it to clean off the algae.
It is also free to operate because it uses the light that would hit the back glass of the tank so the tank looks better and the water is from the outflow of the skimmer.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[Elmo18]

Aye...2400 posts later...and I still seem to make 'double posts'. Sorry about that....

Best,
Ilham

 

[Elmo18]

Hi all.

Hey luke, i don't have more weight. Same level; although gabby...it probably swings more in 'clown' weight.

I think in my opinion, it is always better to do things the natural way, if it can be done. Again my opinion. It was just my choice to not run a skimmer on all my tanks, as I preferred to do water changes. I run macroalgaes in the sump/fuge, and those tanks that do not have a sump, I just place a ball of chaeto in there and let it grow.

What i'm not advocating is dumping sand in the tank, fill with water, place live rock, corals, and expect a flawless system. You need to let the sandbed build the infauna. I think in the big overall picture (and I don't want this post to go DSB vs BB again ) is that starting a tank with a bunch of sand, live rock, and placing animals all at once it NOT the way to do it.

I do run my main system on a DSB, and some of my other LR systems with 2" of sand or more. However, on my breeder tanks and baby growout tanks, I eliminate the sand bed, just because it is easier for me to siphon everything out.

Again, just personal opinions.

Best,
Ilham

 

[Krish]

Again, just personal opinions.

Best,
Ilham

That's the beauty of the hobby...You can be as diverse as a chicken and a donkey in your setup and maintenance methods and can all have the same results. You may like sand for your tank, some people don't. Some people like shallow sand for their tanks, some like it deep. Some like skimmers and some have no idea what a skimmer is(LOL) But all reap great results. I'm all for, "Go with what works for you"

 

[spongebob lover]

I think in my opinion, it is always better to do things the natural way, if it can be done. Again my opinion. It was just my choice to not run a skimmer on all my tanks, as I preferred to do water changes. I run macroalgaes in the sump/fuge, and those tanks that do not have a sump, I just place a ball of chaeto in there and let it grow.

What i'm not advocating is dumping sand in the tank, fill with water, place live rock, corals, and expect a flawless system. You need to let the sandbed build the infauna. I think in the big overall picture (and I don't want this post to go DSB vs BB again ) is that starting a tank with a bunch of sand, live rock, and placing animals all at once it NOT the way to do it.

I do run my main system on a DSB, and some of my other LR systems with 2" of sand or more. However, on my breeder tanks and baby growout tanks, I eliminate the sand bed, just because it is easier for me to siphon everything out.

Again, just personal opinions.

i have a question dood, how many water changes do you do? once a week, once every 2 weeks, once a month?

 

[Elmo18]

i have a question dood, how many water changes do you do? once a week, once every 2 weeks, once a month?

On the main 27 gallon reef, DSB, macro, skimmerless, I do about 5 gallons every week. Small polybag of 1/2 cup of carbon changed every 2-3 weeks.

Hi luke, I did not mean to hijack the thread. I think your method of filtration is interesting and it seems to work
Best,
Ilham

 

[spongebob lover]

On the main 27 gallon reef, DSB, macro, skimmerless, I do about 5 gallons every week. Small polybag of 1/2 cup of carbon changed every 2-3 weeks.

Hi luke, I did not mean to hijack the thread. I think your method of filtration is interesting and it seems to work
Best,

i think that's good dood ... no wonder those clowns are always happy .
Sorry Luke, i didn't mean to hijack either i just had to ask.

 

[mojoreef]

Liveforphysics

I am certianly aware that the cheato can only use disolved coupounds. I am also aware that with out skimming, my autotrophic algae cells (green water) are not being stripped from my water. These cells are the foundation staple of MANY types of microfauna.

I guess it would be a case of what type of algae cells your system is producing. Also do you believe that skimmer is striping all of these cells? I think we would be hard pressed to come even close to that.

I am also a frim beliver that there are no (non-metal base) compounds that we produce in our tanks that a complete microfauna population cant eventually reduce a disolved organic compound capable of being taken up by the cheato.

Now your into cycling, pretty highly competative enviroment located in may different areas. Can you see DOC's making it away from the substraight, or passed on by other algaes (cyano, hair and so on) on its way to the location that you have the chelato??

Again just having a conversation, no BB/DSB thing. I hope you take it that way

Mike

 

[plack]

I am interested in your reactor in more detail and pictures I've never heard of sugar and yeast and marble chip's in some plastic containers and simple hoses is it gravity fed/dripped/pumped how often do you use it ? I have only heard of the co2 gas bubbling into the media in an acrylic tube type Or kalkwasser dripping

 

[plack]

also on a side note do you still wanted used pc bulbs do they have to be any particular pin config as I might be able to bring some to the next meeting and I could hand em to ya there let me know How is the light experiment going

 

[liveforphysics]

Mojo- No need to worry about offending me sir, but I appreciate your sensitivity. Yes, I can see things leaving the DSB and making it into the cheato. I see this happening through fauna breaking them down. If you think about the law of conservation of energy, everytime these complex detritus compounds are consumed by something, they have a lower energy state when they are excreeted/processed. There are more bio nitches present in a reef with no skimming. I belive that the reason I have no visible detritus even though I way over feed is due to the complete fauna cycle being present in my tank. Once they reach a low enough energy state, they end up being able to be used by the cheato which can make use of very low energy solutions do to its ability to combine compounds with light energy. (but i know you allready know all this)

Yes, greenwater through a skimmer rapidly becomes non-greenwater. Green water is an essential food for many many types of fauna types.
I belive its safe to say that skimmed reefs (espically highly skimmed) are lacking in fauna. Do you agree? If not, please tell me why, or at least where the flaw in my logic occurs.

 

[liveforphysics]

Plack- If you and others wana see a writeup on the very safe, very stable, very cheap calc reactor that uses yeast and sugar for a CO2 source, just let me know and I will make an effort to take some pics and write about it in a new thread. Otherwise I would like to keep this about cheato filtration.

Lighting design wise, I can always more bulbs donated to science I have about 20 right now in a pile of transformers/fets/freq control equip spread out over the living room of my appt. My GF is not real pleased about it... but things are working out. I am allready totally smokeing the performance of all the ballasts I am aware of on the market (icecap, pfo, etc). But, I will have to do some long term testing once I finalize what freqs/current/ etc works best. For all i know so far, the bulbs may only last a week. Final testing is the lamest part about R&D.

 

[wave98]

Another vote for the Calc reactor thread. High performance and inexpensive DIY, I love it !

> Barry

 

[mojoreef]

Excellent liveforphysics I am glad we can just have a conversation.

If you think about the law of conservation of energy, everytime these complex detritus compounds are consumed by something, they have a lower energy state when they are excreeted/processed

Truely I do agree. So let follow this appling the Laws of conservation. A peice of matter (detritus/food/dead thing or what ever) enters this ecosystem that is the substraight or LR and we assume that it is being consummed by a whole line of critters from bacteria to worms? what is truely happening?? what are we creating when this law is applied?

Once they reach a low enough energy state, they end up being able to be used by the cheato which can make use of very low energy solutions do to its ability to combine compounds with light energy.

Ok so we know that chelato will only absorb DOC's so then in your example you are saying that DOC's are made available through biological action in your substraight and LR and then it migrates to the water column where it would be transfered to your refugium where the chelato is present. Right?? or am I overlooking something?


Mike

 

[plack]

What are DOC's I don't know ?

 

[mojoreef]

Dissolve organic compounds


Mike

 

[joanndl]

Cheato

I am new to this and would love to see a detail write up on the very safe, stable and cheap calc reactor that uses yeast and sugar for a co2 source. Thanks

Joann.

Plack- If you and others wana see a writeup on the very safe, very stable, very cheap calc reactor that uses yeast and sugar for a CO2 source, just let me know and I will make an effort to take some pics and write about it in a new thread. Otherwise I would like to keep this about cheato filtration.

Lighting design wise, I can always more bulbs donated to science I have about 20 right now in a pile of transformers/fets/freq control equip spread out over the living room of my appt. My GF is not real pleased about it... but things are working out. I am allready totally smokeing the performance of all the ballasts I am aware of on the market (icecap, pfo, etc). But, I will have to do some long term testing once I finalize what freqs/current/ etc works best. For all i know so far, the bulbs may only last a week. Final testing is the lamest part about R&D.

 

[liveforphysics]

Mojo- I belive that you now understand exactly what I think is occuring. You are welcome to come over and radically over feed the tanks yourself for a couple weeks and see if you can find even a spot of detritus on a rock, or give the sand bed the old swirly-whirl and see the little to non-existant accumulation of organic particles in the 1.25ish" crushed coral substraght.

Parties interested in calc reactor- I will make a new thread about it alone. I just need to take a few pics and things. Its been working very very well for me, and required just about zero tuneing do to a little different principal being used than a status quo sort of design.

 

[Electrokate]

I make DIY CO2 yeast reactors for freshwater, was wondering when someone would design one for calcium reactors, thanks! I didn't want to be the one to experiment myself, I got enough problems already.

I too have a couple debris free very stable tanks with no skimmer, zero phosphate nitrate etc and perfect ph/Ca. Filtration on one is a powerhead with sponge and sponge filter, the other has a Penguin HOB filter and refugium. I think it's highly ironic that my big tank (similar to Paul's 100 gallon long) is in terrible condition-detritus everywhere, endless algae attacks, dying coral-with two skimmers on it and endless outpourings of money/research. But these simple little systems are fine, I use them to rehab coral from the fancy tank. One even has a couple RBTA's in it-and they split. I do a lot of water changes on them though, and I dread disturbing the sandbed. Lots of grey nastiness. But I don't have much chaeto in these tanks.

I think the detritus is removed by the huge quantity of microfauna that can cling to, crawl on and shelter in chaeto. My chaeto based fuges have live mysid shrimp, several different brittle stars, pods, sponges, snails, limpets and all kinds of stuff. Probably a lot more than I can see. I think the chaeto works like hair algae, trapping the detritus before it hits the sand bed and holding it til it's broken down. Then the critters eat the debris or the debris rots into a form the chaeto can use. I don't care what is the case, it works.

I like experimenting too. Wish I could really definitively state what causes one tank to succeed over another but fear it's the microscopic fauna and flora, which you can't actually measure and buy in a fish store. A lot of companies would like you to think they have it bottled, but I don't think it's simple at all. What would be an interesting experiment would be for me to take a handful of your substrate from one of these tanks, drip acclimate it like a delicate starfish, and add it to my sand bed. Even then I might not end up with the same lifeforms, unfortunately.

I like seeing how much life ends up in the bag when I cut a chunk of chaeto off for people. Sometimes it's quite amazing.

Kate

 

[spongebob lover]

Parties interested in calc reactor- I will make a new thread about it alone. I just need to take a few pics and things. Its been working very very well for me, and required just about zero tuneing do to a little different principal being used than a status quo sort of design.

I can't wait for that thread , i'm still amazed by your tanks.