The Sterile Tank method!

[Scooterman]

The Sterile Tank method, an introduction.
This thread probably isn't best suited for beginners as the Idea & concept is a little way off the norm. Personally when I give advise it is based on years of experience, tried & true ways. To say & do what we're going to discuss here requires a certain understand & experience level so be warned first off, there is more than one way to accomplish the same goal & this way may not be totally new but un-practiced by most.

So that said! lets move on!

What I want to discuss here or propose, is a discussion of basically a sterile tank. The Idea LR or used up LR is processed with muriatic acid or whatever means, used as a soak destroying everything on it, opening up the pours & starting a reef tank with dry sterile rocks. The idea is to eliminate all the algae & unwanted critters into a tank. I myself have cooked, boiled & bleached LR to basically accomplish this but only in part ways. The rocks I've done this to is still in use & in better shape than the other rocks that I haven't tried this on. I think this can be a great topic & discussion & maybe one day this might be an option to use & suggested more frequently. I've asked Don to step in here because from what I understand he has taken it to a level of basically doing just this with a completely new set-up & it has proved to be very successful, (please correct me if I mis-state anything or assume things). I have to think it would be worth getting more information & details & pros-cons etc. I plan on doing some more of this myself with my existing tank, sorta retrofitting it to the concept.

To start I don't think just any rock would serve the purpose, basically regular LR or Old used up LR would have to be used, I may be wrong on this though, so lets have some Ideas & Input & maybe learn a thing or two!

 

[morgan]

i can see this would be good if u picked up old lr that had been out of a tank or in pretty bad shape but when u buy lr here its full of some pretty good stuff ive had acans favids gonis and all sorts of stuff spring up on my live rock that was never there if i had cooked those rocks it would have removed those tiny spores where these sweet corals have come from

 

[CarlaW]

Is the ocean sterile????? This may be the only post I have here, but I just had to ask the question??????

 

[returnofsid]

I can see this being beneficial in some ways. You'd end up with a tank that has NOTHING that you don't add. In other words, NO pests, but also NOTHING beneficial. But you would be absolutely sure of knowing exactly what's in it.

On the other hand, going along with Charlie's comment, IMO, the beneficial critters we get on live rock, outweighs the possible pest hitchhikers MOST of the time.

If you start out with a sterilized tank, you'd have to actually purchase all the beneficial critters that normally come for free. You wouldn't be able to "seed" your tank with actual Live Rock, as that would negate the entire purpose of sterilizing.

One other great benefit I do see is how it would totally open up all the pores, cracks and crevices in the rock. In this way, once it became "live rock" again, it would become a much better biological filter than rock that's all plugged up with detritous and such. You'd end up with much more "surface area" for filtration and beneficial bacterias to live on. But how would you import that bacteria? I guess a typical cycling period, using ammonia would get it started. I'd think you'd still need to "seed" with something that's NOT sterile.

I see why this is in the Advanced forum and why Scooty started out by explaining the "advanced" reasoning behind it.

If you did use this method, you would definitely be free of any pests or nuisance algaes. If you ended up with them down the road, it'd be because you introduced them yourself.

So, as for using dry "live rock" instead, the only benefit I can see is that it would clean out and open up the pores.

Interesting concept!!

 

[poakley723]

This is a very interesting concept. It kind of goes along with my post about getting dead rock from Morcosrock. But i think you would eventually have to contaminate your tank just because you will eventually put corals and fish in your tank. I want to start my 125g in this manor with dead sand and rock. Definatly gets you a clean slate to start with but how exactly would you make sterile corals. I guess maybe fresh water dips? Has any one done this before. i would be more then willing to run my tank this way as an experiment.

 

[returnofsid]

I don't think this thread is about sterilizing anything other than the live rock and sand that you start out with. It just gives you, as you said, a clean slate to start with. Then it'd be your responsibility to QT EVERYTHING that ever goes into the tank, to guarantee or at least somewhat guarantee to keep it pest free.

 

[DonW]

There is alot of argument to using this method. My current tank was set up using the same method. Besides pods I really cant think of anything Id consider benefical that comes on LR. There are some cool little critters but none really do much of anything.
There are things to think about when going this route. You need to have a good idea of what is going to go in the tank. There are processes that need to happen either way and with sterile rock and sand you have to force them. First of course is the cycle, pretty basic so no need to explain. Second is diatoms or a diatom bloom. This is a must because you dont want to get the tank up and running looking great and have a diatom explosion just because you bought a nice lps or something. Most everything will bring in diatoms so they need to be stabilized. I did this with hermit crabs. Just went to a LFS that I knew for sure would sell me hermits out of their bigger display. Boom three days latter the gut loaded hermits got the diatoms going they exploded into a bloom with the little help of a carbon source and stabilized.The hermits did three things. They caused the diatoms, they cleaned them back up after they stabilized and they seeded the tank with coraline. It only took 3 weeks for coraline to show up on the overflow and now grows spots daily. Next comes pods, not necessarily a need but now that there is food they will survive. Next comes a algae eating fish. We want to grow some green film algae. This blooms just like the diatoms and will go nuts, stabilize then mostly disapear. I wouldnt want it to go nuts in a tank of sps so forcing it to happen early is easy. An orange spot goby is all it took. Go to the LFS find a algae eater that is consuming live algae. You just have to observe the LFS tank and be sure its clean with a little film and that the fish is actually eating it. Within a few days of adding the fish the algae blooms and a week later it will stabilize. Now basicly after youve done nothing more than just buy some live stock youve seen the tank go through exactly the same blooms as a tank that had lr from the beginning. For me this was a 5 week process with a little help from a carbon source from day one to today. The only algae left is the coraline on the overflow and the tank is full of pod. The hermits can go back to the LFS. Now when I add coral I just need to make sure they are pest free and cut off the rock bases that will bring in thing like aptasia or other unwanted pest.
So not really hard at all and I wont be missing much.

Don

 

[returnofsid]

Don, other than pods, there is also the beneficial bacteria that comes with live rock. I'm assuming you introduced the beneficial bacteria with your carbon source? Or would they start up during the cycling process? With sterile rock and sand, wouldn't these bacterium need to be introduced some how? Also, how were pods introduced into your tank? Chaeto?

 

[DonW]

Don, other than pods, there is also the beneficial bacteria that comes with live rock. I'm assuming you introduced the beneficial bacteria with your carbon source? Or would they start up during the cycling process? With sterile rock and sand, wouldn't these bacterium need to be introduced some how? Also, how were pods introduced into your tank? Chaeto?

Pods come in a bottle, acclimate and dump them in. Bacteria is a mute point just a few frozen mysis will start bacteria and a carbon source will get blooming as fast or faster than "live rock".

Don

 

[Scooterman]

Don, can we back it up some here & maybe explain the process of using muriatic acid & how to do it safely, where to get etc? From what I understand this process may actually work better than the bleaching process or just boiling them.

 

[DonW]

Don, can we back it up some here & maybe explain the process of using muriatic acid & how to do it safely, where to get etc? From what I understand this process may actually work better than the bleaching process or just boiling them.

Muratic acid can be found at home depot although its not very stong @30%.
I mix a pint in a 5g bucket of plain rodi water. It will be worthless real quick within minutes so it takes a few times but removes all the surface coraline and loose stuff. I followed up with bleach to remove anything else. Blasted with compressed air and baked dry in the oven. For good measures 30 seconds in the microwave. I also used a pick and dremmel to clean and scrape the holes that I could get into just to try and prevent any shedding. The whole process to a full day with just the little rock I have, so its not easy or fun.

Don

 

[Scooterman]

After all that is this rock ready to hit water & start new?

 

[DonW]

After all that is this rock ready to hit water & start new?

I would say so. Mine was pretty clean and dead to begin with. I let it set in the tank for a week with just plain water and flow. It did not shed anything so Id say I got it clean.

Don

 

[reedman]

Don, Is there a real need to bleach/nuke/bake the rock after the acid bath? Like you said the acid is nuetralized quickly and I would think a simple rinse in clean freshwater would do the trick before putting the rock back in the tank.

 

[DonW]

Don, Is there a real need to bleach/nuke/bake the rock after the acid bath? Like you said the acid is nuetralized quickly and I would think a simple rinse in clean freshwater would do the trick before putting the rock back in the tank.

The acid does almost nothing to remove air algae or briopsis it kills it but it still remains there just dead. Soaking in bleach just gives the rock time to loosen up all that stuck on algae so you dont have to spend so much time scrubbing. I think if all you wanted to do was start off with dead and didnt mind the shedding the acid would be all that is needed. The shedding is what I wanted to avoid.

Don

 

[Scooterman]

Is the ocean sterile????? This may be the only post I have here, but I just had to ask the question??????

I think this one deserves an Analogy! I'd also like to explain as to why would anyone want to do such a thing in the first place!

Starting with the first question, no the ocean isn't sterile. Charlie you have Domesticated dogs, I don't know how many thousands of years man has kept them, trained them, feed them to the point where they evolved so much that surviving without man most fragile breads would probably die off. Think of their food how it is processed, think of where they sleep & under what conditions we provide & think of how we've molded them to suit our needs, every bread custom made almost.
Now everyone wants to replicate the ocean in a small glass box! We get rock from Tonga, corals from India, fish from Hawaii.
How can you say all the critters you get from a variety of rocks will all work together & survive or thrive? How can you say your corals will get along & we always see that fish compatibility question, daily almost. We never change out 100% water every second, constantly flushing the tank, removing all the problems inherited by using this glass box we have here. None of that happens in the wild but yet we say we're doing everything we can to replicate a true reef. If that was true the all of your fish, rocks corals would come off one section on one reef.
To compensate, we play Gods with equipment, chemicals, man made ways to make things work or at least to a tolerable point for our purpose. We evolve what we have & domesticate it just like we've done to any other pets we have.


So lets see If I can get my point as to why would one want to do something on this scale that goes against the grain so say.
What a sterile tank does & is thought to do for someone with a good understanding of the processes & cycles of a tank can make life easier. Lets say some people want what you have but never will put forth the time you do but maybe want a small piece of the pie. What in the heck do I mean by all this. Well basically you have a simple system, easy to care for with ingredients of the things you do on a larger scale but stripped of the complication. We're looking at a tank, sump or rear chamber as in my cube case. We want a really efficient skimmer, a means of media like carbon or phosphate remover, designed flow, good looking lights on simple timers & RO/DI set-up to make plenty of water all for one goal.
Your display has an arrangement of well place LR's for coral placement, choice corals & fish. A simple plan to care & feed well & a simple plan for husbandry. Maybe not a fully loaded tank with thousands $$$ worth of corals but enough to be very aesthetic, pleasing to the eye with room to grow & room for you to give closer individualized care maybe. The system isn't over loaded basically. The Sterile part is the start process, the rocks are stripped of the things you don't need or want & you implant just what you want & no more, cycling may take longer & the start-up process but seems Don may have a better feel as to how to get that part done more efficiently.
My Idea of sterile may not be precise but the concept is basically the same, the process is what we're discussing & I'd like to learn more about it all together. I've done some of this with a few pieces of rocks before & the results were amazing to date, I wish I would of started up completely that way but still can somewhat do it in parts. Not everyone has the same ideas for a reef tank. I don't want to argue that this is the next new thing or best way, It is a simplistic thought process, easy care & successful so far. Every tank I've ever had was never the same as the one before it, I doubt it ever will.

 

[loohunter]

would it be safer to use vinegar to clean the rock or bleach

 

[DonW]

would it be safer to use vinegar to clean the rock or bleach

For the person yes, for the rock not really. With acid you just have to remember that the fumes are toxic so add acid to water not water to acid. Other than doing it out doors the 30% that you get at hd or lowes is pretty watered down.
FWIW I can put my hands in the mixed solution without any ill affect but probably wouldnt suggest doing that unless you have mechanics hands.

Don

 

[reedman]

FWIW I can put my hands in the mixed solution without any ill affect but probably wouldnt suggest doing that unless you have mechanics hands.

I would suggest using the rubber gloves. :badgrin: There are a lot of chemicals out there that react differently with different people. Hate to see someone in the ER.

For those that have not had any experience with muriatic acid let me give you a quick idea. This stuff is not very strong, but the fumes are. I use it to clean anything that gets calcified (pumps, skimmer, etc.) Works great and is much faster than vinegar. I just use dish washing gloves (steal a pair from your spouse....just make sure they don't think you are going to do the dishes). Make sure you have good ventilation...no joke here....you can really hurt yourself quickly with the fumes.

 

[Scooterman]

What department do you look in to find the acid?