DonW
R.I.P.
In the paint section right next to the acetone and thinner. It will be in a clear 1 gallon jug. One more word of caution dont get it any where near bleach!
Don
The Sterile Tank method!
- Thread starter Scooterman
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In the paint section right next to the acetone and thinner. It will be in a clear 1 gallon jug. One more word of caution dont get it any where near bleach!
Don
Curtswearing
Mantisfreak
I personally like doing tanks this way.
When Live Rock (LR) was introduced to the hobby, the "live" part of "live rock" meant that it housed bacteria.....nothing more. Then Walter Adey and Karen Loveland got people thinking that you could actually build an entire ecosystem in your tank. Having all of this extra life on LR was a necessary part of building this ecosystem. As Don stated, it is interesting, but it is not necessary. IMO, no one will EVER be able to build an entire ecosystem/mesocosm. (If you disagree, please start a separate thread to avoid getting off-topic on this one).
That whole paragraph basically leads to this. IMO, LR provides hiding places for fish, ledges for coral, and surface area for bacteria. I find various worms, pods, chitons, sponges, etc interesting. However, since I don't believe that all of the other animals provide any value beyond being interesting, I find that the "sterile" method of setting up a new tank is easier. Like Mike said, every addition to your tank brings the possibility of a new contaminant. That is why I believe in QT and dipping, etc.
When Live Rock (LR) was introduced to the hobby, the "live" part of "live rock" meant that it housed bacteria.....nothing more. Then Walter Adey and Karen Loveland got people thinking that you could actually build an entire ecosystem in your tank. Having all of this extra life on LR was a necessary part of building this ecosystem. As Don stated, it is interesting, but it is not necessary. IMO, no one will EVER be able to build an entire ecosystem/mesocosm. (If you disagree, please start a separate thread to avoid getting off-topic on this one).
That whole paragraph basically leads to this. IMO, LR provides hiding places for fish, ledges for coral, and surface area for bacteria. I find various worms, pods, chitons, sponges, etc interesting. However, since I don't believe that all of the other animals provide any value beyond being interesting, I find that the "sterile" method of setting up a new tank is easier. Like Mike said, every addition to your tank brings the possibility of a new contaminant. That is why I believe in QT and dipping, etc.
Thinking I might do a modified version of this when I set up my 113. Some of my rock will probably be Tufa Stone...which is basically ancient live rock that is found on land, far from any current oceans. My reasoning behind this is that I have a readily available supply of all the Tufa Stone I want and very inexpensive. Also, being that Tufa Stone hasn't been in the ocean for "awhile," it'll be free of any of the normal pests we get as hitchhikers. I have verified that this rock is also free of any land based chemicals or pesticides as well. Well, verified it to the best of my ability, by using some in an experimental tank for awhile now. I say "modified" because I'll probably use this technique with most of my rock, but will seed it with some actual live rock. I want some of the animals that are more "interesting" than needed. However, I will also be making sure that the live rock comes out of my own tanks or that it's live rock I've had in QT for quite some time. I'll be pretty selective as to what live rock I use to seed with. I would take this technique through the fully cycled period before adding my live rock. I really like the idea of opening up the rock to fully utilize it's filtration ability and make full use of all of it's "surface area." Don, I'm sure I'll be pestering you a lot when the time comes...lol.
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I have to disagree with this method.
IMO, what exists on on LR in the ocean is an already relatively balanced amount of micro crustaceans and bacteria. Our goal is to try to get the rock from the ocean, to our tank, with the least amount of disruption. Unfortunately very few places offer this kind of service, but it is possibly to get rock that is actually shipped in water through several AC farms in Florida. Various degrees of “fresher rock” can be obtained from certain places, but these will all require curing. Where ever you get your rock from though, some micro-crustaceans will survive, along with some bacteria.
What good are these micro crustaceans and bacterias? They grow into a population who's sized is determined by the nutrient input of your tank. These include worms of various types, all your different pods, mini brittles, etc. These little creatures each perform a slightly different task. The micro stars live under the rocks, the worms live in your sand, and in small holes in the surface of the rocks, and your pods live in the dark crevices and and other small areas that other larger crustacean cant fit in.
In a completely sterile tank you have absolutely 0 of these. I suppose it would be possible to add each of these micro crustaceans separately(though where would you buy them all?) and spend the next 6 months slowly feeding your tank to allow the populations to return. To this I would respond with "Why not simply cure your rocks in a brute for a month in a half and avoid wiping out all your populations?"
I imagine the next response will be along the lines of:"This insures that there is absolutely 0 algae in the tank with no chance of it returning, and no bad hitch hikers."
To this I would argue:
Hitchhikers- Most bad hitchhikers can be trapped, or will starve to death in the brute while your curing your rocks. If you get a mantis shrimp, you'll hear it, and can try to trap it or figure out which rock its in while your curing. If you have any crabs, they are easily caught in a tilted glass filled with bait.
Algae-After a month in a half in a brute you won't have any algae. You will still however have some dormant algae cells on your rock that will return given enough nutrients and light. This is a fundamental issue of any reef tank. With strong skimming, a productive macro algae fuge, regular water changes, and a few members of the clean up crew in your tank, you wont have issues. Learning this balance is an essential part of learning to take care of a reef, and will have to be learned regardless of if you cure your rocks, put them in straight from the ocean, or sterilize them.
My question to the sterilizer would be: "How do you plan on adding corals and snails?" The sterilization method will necessarily kill the corals and the snails. LPS, clams, softies, zoa's and larger SPS all are attached to some sort of rock or substrates. Therefore, how do you make sure no dormant algae cells, or pests are introduced?
You could Qt them(and should), but this is tantamount to the "brute trash can" method, and does not NECCISSARILY insure that substrate that your coral is attached too is 100% sterile. In so much that you cant insure that your tank is sterile once you've started adding corals, whats the point? It seems that the idea of the sterile tank will break down at some point, leaving you a tank like any other that has some minor algae issue.
IMO, what exists on on LR in the ocean is an already relatively balanced amount of micro crustaceans and bacteria. Our goal is to try to get the rock from the ocean, to our tank, with the least amount of disruption. Unfortunately very few places offer this kind of service, but it is possibly to get rock that is actually shipped in water through several AC farms in Florida. Various degrees of “fresher rock” can be obtained from certain places, but these will all require curing. Where ever you get your rock from though, some micro-crustaceans will survive, along with some bacteria.
What good are these micro crustaceans and bacterias? They grow into a population who's sized is determined by the nutrient input of your tank. These include worms of various types, all your different pods, mini brittles, etc. These little creatures each perform a slightly different task. The micro stars live under the rocks, the worms live in your sand, and in small holes in the surface of the rocks, and your pods live in the dark crevices and and other small areas that other larger crustacean cant fit in.
In a completely sterile tank you have absolutely 0 of these. I suppose it would be possible to add each of these micro crustaceans separately(though where would you buy them all?) and spend the next 6 months slowly feeding your tank to allow the populations to return. To this I would respond with "Why not simply cure your rocks in a brute for a month in a half and avoid wiping out all your populations?"
I imagine the next response will be along the lines of:"This insures that there is absolutely 0 algae in the tank with no chance of it returning, and no bad hitch hikers."
To this I would argue:
Hitchhikers- Most bad hitchhikers can be trapped, or will starve to death in the brute while your curing your rocks. If you get a mantis shrimp, you'll hear it, and can try to trap it or figure out which rock its in while your curing. If you have any crabs, they are easily caught in a tilted glass filled with bait.
Algae-After a month in a half in a brute you won't have any algae. You will still however have some dormant algae cells on your rock that will return given enough nutrients and light. This is a fundamental issue of any reef tank. With strong skimming, a productive macro algae fuge, regular water changes, and a few members of the clean up crew in your tank, you wont have issues. Learning this balance is an essential part of learning to take care of a reef, and will have to be learned regardless of if you cure your rocks, put them in straight from the ocean, or sterilize them.
My question to the sterilizer would be: "How do you plan on adding corals and snails?" The sterilization method will necessarily kill the corals and the snails. LPS, clams, softies, zoa's and larger SPS all are attached to some sort of rock or substrates. Therefore, how do you make sure no dormant algae cells, or pests are introduced?
You could Qt them(and should), but this is tantamount to the "brute trash can" method, and does not NECCISSARILY insure that substrate that your coral is attached too is 100% sterile. In so much that you cant insure that your tank is sterile once you've started adding corals, whats the point? It seems that the idea of the sterile tank will break down at some point, leaving you a tank like any other that has some minor algae issue.
SPS, and most corals, can be broken or cut off of whatever substrate they are attached to and re-attached to your own choice of substrate. Don already touched on that subject awhile ago. He also detailed how he went about adding the essential "critters" that he felt he needed.
I do see both sides of this and see how sterilization, if done properly would work just fine. This thread isn't saying everyone should do it. In fact, I think the beginning statements were just to the opposite. This is an advanced technique that gives the advanced reefer an option.
I do see both sides of this and see how sterilization, if done properly would work just fine. This thread isn't saying everyone should do it. In fact, I think the beginning statements were just to the opposite. This is an advanced technique that gives the advanced reefer an option.
How are you going to attach a sofite? What about all LPS? What about clams?
How do you attach softies that you purchase unattached? In fact, I think every softie that I've ever purchased, or that has ever been given to me has been unattached. I usually use toothpicks, but there's also wedding veil, as well as other options.
LPS, depends on the type. Most LPS I've received have only been the polyps and skeleton...not rock. However, there are some LPS that will always come on rockwork.
Clams, I have had 4 clams in my tanks and none have ever been attached. However, 1 did die and I believe it was due to being removed inappropriately.
LPS, depends on the type. Most LPS I've received have only been the polyps and skeleton...not rock. However, there are some LPS that will always come on rockwork.
Clams, I have had 4 clams in my tanks and none have ever been attached. However, 1 did die and I believe it was due to being removed inappropriately.
And if this thread was solely about limiting algae, that would matter....but it isn't. I understand what you're saying...and as I've said above, this isn't for everyone...and I'm, nor is anyone else saying it's the ONLY way...but it is an option and does have merit. With this technique, you have much more control over what ends up in your tank.
DonW
R.I.P.
We all have been told for years to "think outside the box." Well thats hard to do when all you have is a box. Our tanks are closed systems and not natural by any means, they cant take care of themselves like the ocean. Its just easier to make mine less complicated and be very careful, treating it more like a controlled enviroment than attempting to duplicate mother nature. A few critters that I would never see are not going to make a bit of difference when were talking about a healthy tank. My bacteria is not going to be any different than the bacter found in LR vs dead rock. In fact if were talking healthy nutrient poor sps tank then most of the missing critters in question will starve either way.
Don
Don
Curtswearing
Mantisfreak
Well, of course they are all CaCO3. But this is not true at all. Calcite, Aragonite, and Dolomite might all be CaCO3 the the amount of Calcium-phosphate they contain can vary widely. Heck, the shell will have more P than the others but because it's smooth, algal spores and detritus don't get stuck in it.
I really truly enjoyed watching my refugium. But their impact on a reef tank has been highly over-rated in terms of nutrient removal. When they started, their only goal was to provide a refuge for food sources like copepods. (Again, same request...if you want to challenge this, open a new thread).
Much of the rock from the AC Farms in Florida will actually have more Calcium-Phosphate than the rock you ship in from elsewhere. It is mined on land, tossed in the ocean for a year in a non-reef setting, then sold to people who then wonder why they get algae. But again, I don't do this solely to avoid algae.
I've cooked rock before (which is a biological way of removing excess P) but it takes some time. However, a little muriatic acid does wonders at the same thing in no time at all. You're gonna lose some critters obviously. Whatever critters I want, I'll add back later. (Obviously, I have a little bit of advantage here....I can walk in grab a bag and nab whatever I want and walk out the door....not everyone can do that). If the tank I'm setting up is going to be an SPS tank, the rock is gonna get nuked. If it's going to be a softy tank, well then, I might choose a more traditional route.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Jezz,
I've cooked LR's in brute containers for more than three months (by the rules strictly), I found some algae died off but others just stayed there waiting for me to insert back into the main tank, seemed they just took off as quick or quicker once returned, even the ones I've pruned back. This is one big reason I admit why I would do sterile, because of algae. I know we require some forums of algae, it is part of a symbiotic relationship so all I'm concerned is removing the alga's that I really have issues with & are very problematic, in one form or another each can have its own set of issues & solutions, dealing with them is part of reef keeping. Reducing this is one step closer to easier care but not the only solution by no means. I've just had so much success with the process I can't believe I didn't try to go farther with my latest tank, the clean rocks are clean still but I see where some of the nasties on older LR's wanting to cross over & invade the usable space. Most of the algae is no big issue for me but the few that are bad make real problems for everything else, including hard to reach spots or close to corals.
Another thing I tried again was sand & I'm about at the point of slowly removing it, detritus trap big time, It would be much easier to siphon detritus out without it, being I have a small cube with rear chamber I do have some limitations so no sand allows me to place some more flow where I need it. Try to siphon between LR's Under & way in the back, it is a chore to say the least.
My last big tank I didn't have a diatom bloom until almost a year, then from there all the rocks I didn't purge sprouted up & produced problems throughout, just a little loose algae can go a long ways in a tank with high flow LOL
I've cooked LR's in brute containers for more than three months (by the rules strictly), I found some algae died off but others just stayed there waiting for me to insert back into the main tank, seemed they just took off as quick or quicker once returned, even the ones I've pruned back. This is one big reason I admit why I would do sterile, because of algae. I know we require some forums of algae, it is part of a symbiotic relationship so all I'm concerned is removing the alga's that I really have issues with & are very problematic, in one form or another each can have its own set of issues & solutions, dealing with them is part of reef keeping. Reducing this is one step closer to easier care but not the only solution by no means. I've just had so much success with the process I can't believe I didn't try to go farther with my latest tank, the clean rocks are clean still but I see where some of the nasties on older LR's wanting to cross over & invade the usable space. Most of the algae is no big issue for me but the few that are bad make real problems for everything else, including hard to reach spots or close to corals.
Another thing I tried again was sand & I'm about at the point of slowly removing it, detritus trap big time, It would be much easier to siphon detritus out without it, being I have a small cube with rear chamber I do have some limitations so no sand allows me to place some more flow where I need it. Try to siphon between LR's Under & way in the back, it is a chore to say the least.
My last big tank I didn't have a diatom bloom until almost a year, then from there all the rocks I didn't purge sprouted up & produced problems throughout, just a little loose algae can go a long ways in a tank with high flow LOL
If your saying that algae can't grow on on old coral skeleton, Ill send you half a dozen pictures right now =P Algae will grow on ANYTHING thats not living.
What about the issue that some have described as a "single bacteria" enviroment in hte sterile tank? This is where one bacteria eventually becomes dominnant, replacing all others and causing the bilogical filtration suffers.
reedman
Well-known member
Is there any proof of this or just conjecture? I am not saying it is or is not true as I have no experience with this, but to make this statement I think you should have some proof that a single strain does become dominant AND that this is in fact detrimental.
DonW
R.I.P.
Are you talking about the lack of multipal strains? If so this is already the case in a closed reef. If your talking about lack of nitrifing and deniti bacteria this simple is not the case either.
Don
Scooterman
Well-known member
As I led on earlier, you can harvest rocks from all over the world, doesn't mean all of the life will be compatible once in your box, so that point is almost moot unless we have some real studies to prove that indeed they all survive or all die off but one.
DonW
R.I.P.
Dosing bacteria created in a lab is not the same as sustaining bacteria brought in from the ocean. Even with zeo it requires constant dosing and really doesnt pertain to the conversation. Your not going to get stuck with a monoculture just because the rock got cleaned and you take care in stocking. Bacteria that gets fed will reproduce different bacterias require different food sources those are addressed by normal feeding and can be even further address with different carbon/ sugar sources if desired but not needed.
Don
Steven Pro
Professional Aquarist
Why are you sterilizing liverock and not just using dead, dry rock like Marco Rocks or something similar? Seems a waste of a resource to buy liverock only to kill it.
