thatguy559
Well-known member
that link is for the old SWCD...i have a 1" one with a removable top. i dont have any issues with it at all. its a true 1" all the way around. the gears moves easily and i have a dart pushing mine
To have a closed loop or not
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Guess Im outta the loop. I didnt know there was a new and improved SCWD. On with the CL build then....
NWDiver
Swimming with the fishes
Great topic, riding along...
ReefLogic
I am Android
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This seems to always be a great subject of conversation. I did a bunch of research....and asked a lot of questions when setting up my new tank and eventually decided against the CL. Mostly due to the previously mentioned "rigidity" of the CL plus the reduction of required pumps or power heads.
Now I am going to work on my "algae scrubber"
Now I am going to work on my "algae scrubber"
MrGone
:)
If you can I figure go for it. You can always choose not to use it but having the option is really nice.
I think when it comes to a small tank you can run PH's or similar without issue. But in a larger tank (for me) its an absolute! You really shouldnt include the return pump from your sump as any real meaninful type of flow in the tank. YOur sump is an area where you are processing water, so skimming it, uv/ozone/algae and so on and so on. ALL of these processes require the flow to be slow with in the sump as contact time is the main factor for all, this is something alot of reefers dont so.
So if you take that slow water flow through a sump into play, your going to have to create flow within the tank by some other means and a closed loop offers so many different variations and creativity. I dont see any issues with using lock line as you can hide it with in the rock very easy and their are a number of differing heads to spread the flow how ever you want. The use of pulsating units, motorized ball valves and so on allow you to recreate a much more similar enviroment to which reef creatures of all kinds enjoy and utilize. As per maintence, if you set it up properly its just a matter of a few valves and you can redo the pumps no problem. I have pumps on my tank that have been running constantly for almost a decade, with only a few hours out to change the seals, so not really a biggie.
anyway just another opinion
Mojo
So if you take that slow water flow through a sump into play, your going to have to create flow within the tank by some other means and a closed loop offers so many different variations and creativity. I dont see any issues with using lock line as you can hide it with in the rock very easy and their are a number of differing heads to spread the flow how ever you want. The use of pulsating units, motorized ball valves and so on allow you to recreate a much more similar enviroment to which reef creatures of all kinds enjoy and utilize. As per maintence, if you set it up properly its just a matter of a few valves and you can redo the pumps no problem. I have pumps on my tank that have been running constantly for almost a decade, with only a few hours out to change the seals, so not really a biggie.
anyway just another opinion
Mojo
Skimmy
SKIM FU
well, i think anyone would agree that your closed loop is special... 
it's a "l33t closed loopx0r"
it has countermeasures built into the design for maintenance and repair,
and in an L shaped tank, i dont think you had much choice, especially at that time, 10+ years ago.
I guess they had tunze pumps back then, but they were shyte brown and huge, with hideous mounting apparatus...lol
and, CL's were all the rage back then...
but I dont even want to know how much it costs to run that monster per year...
and i couldnt agree more with your comments about slow flow through the sump.....
seems like im always trying to make folks understand this.
it's a "l33t closed loopx0r"
it has countermeasures built into the design for maintenance and repair,
and in an L shaped tank, i dont think you had much choice, especially at that time, 10+ years ago.
I guess they had tunze pumps back then, but they were shyte brown and huge, with hideous mounting apparatus...lol
and, CL's were all the rage back then...
but I dont even want to know how much it costs to run that monster per year...
and i couldnt agree more with your comments about slow flow through the sump.....
seems like im always trying to make folks understand this.
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Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
The only downside to closed looks is large noisy high amp pump being needed, and many fittings requiring good connection to prevent leakage.
As to water flow through the sump, I have yet to be convinced that slow is required to allow skimmer, etc to work. I can not grasp what chemistry or biology would necessitate a lower turnover. Whether the skimmer is pulling from a fully tank dirtied sump solution or one being refreshed slower with available display pollutants shouldn't make much difference. In fact, the faster the turnover to the sump, the more the available pollutants that could be removed. I am not interested with crystal clean sump water, I want the display clean. The only time slow might be needed would be in a denitrator or some phosphate media reactors.
More dirty water into the sump = more protiens and partical removal possible
As to water flow through the sump, I have yet to be convinced that slow is required to allow skimmer, etc to work. I can not grasp what chemistry or biology would necessitate a lower turnover. Whether the skimmer is pulling from a fully tank dirtied sump solution or one being refreshed slower with available display pollutants shouldn't make much difference. In fact, the faster the turnover to the sump, the more the available pollutants that could be removed. I am not interested with crystal clean sump water, I want the display clean. The only time slow might be needed would be in a denitrator or some phosphate media reactors.
More dirty water into the sump = more protiens and partical removal possible
thatguy559
Well-known member
i agree with herefishyfishy i dont think that the slower through the sump method is any better then pumping it full blast through there. my skimmer pulls out some of the nastiest crap i have ever seen in a skimmer cup i have always had high flow through my sump. currently im using my dart return as flow in my tank and i have zero issues with my tank staying clean.
NWDiver
Swimming with the fishes
I would love to have someone explain the need for sump dwell time. I get that the skimmer needs time to process the water in the skimmer body, but I can't see the advantage of slowing the water through the whole sump.
Scooterman
Well-known member
Ok, lets think about this, rush water from your display, down into your sump, probably a sock you change out? So that has to be replaced/cleaned often, high flow gets it there quicker if your overflow box has time to properly skim the surface of the tank and pull the nasties down into the sump. Lets take that all out of the equation, lets say the water free falls into the sump at a high rate, turbulence, mixed up detritus in suspension, forced over/under dividers, some getting sucked into the skimmer, the most of it travels past into th next set of chambers because the skimmer can't process all that so fast. You push water through a chamber of sand/fuge maybe, more turbulence and some detritus lands there but so much movement pushes through that even the gets recirculated back to the return. How can that work as good as giving time for the detritus to settle in the sump area to get processed?
Anyone with high sump flow, try this, cut the flow rate in half and wait it out a few days, compare your junk to what it usually is and then come back here and give an Honest observation. Just a simple test, anyone can do it, and see what happens. Even better yet, why not clean your sump, skimmer, then do it and compare it to when you go all out and let it ride the same amount of time.
The trick is first to get detritus into the overflow properly, then to contain it before it comes back into the sump. Do it and give us some feed back. :couch2:
Anyone with high sump flow, try this, cut the flow rate in half and wait it out a few days, compare your junk to what it usually is and then come back here and give an Honest observation. Just a simple test, anyone can do it, and see what happens. Even better yet, why not clean your sump, skimmer, then do it and compare it to when you go all out and let it ride the same amount of time.
The trick is first to get detritus into the overflow properly, then to contain it before it comes back into the sump. Do it and give us some feed back. :couch2:
Skimmy
SKIM FU
i humbly dis-agree.
take your average persons sump for a 100g tank,
lets say theres a pinwheel/meshwheel skimmer in there, a media reactor with some carbon, and a refugium....
but here's the deal, the skimmer and media reactors only process a finite amount of water per hour...
(say 150-200gph for the skimmer, and 150-200gph for a media reactor)
providing more water than they can process isnt going to mean you get cleaner water....
and the macroalgae in the fuge is going to have a better shot of taking out nutrients if there's slower contact as opposed to water just flying by..
so for our example, it makes no sense to provide more than 300-400gph of process water to the sump for an average 100g system.
the only thing thats going to benifit from high flow through the sump is mechanical filtration(socks and pads which most do not run 24/7 anyway, because the particulate matter in the water column is benificial to feeding the corals), or possibly beckett injector skimmers which would be processing a bit more water.
now, if you have an oversized protein skimmer, and a xl media reactor with larger pump and a massive refugium on that same 100g tank, then yes, it will benifit from having more process water in the sump...
Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
I also respectfully disagree. Your theory presumes that the display/sump is other than a single mass of water. Whether that water is in the sump or in the tank makes little difference to what pollutants are in the system. Additionally, the skimmer will pump through it the same gph regardless the volume or flow through in the sump. Would a skimmer pull more gunk out of dirty water than clean water? If the answer is yes, than one would want to supply the skimmer with the greatest quantity of system pollution. Having a slow flow to the sump would mean the sump was being kept cleaner than the display. If slow flow filtering mattered, than in-tank skimmers of the same ratings would not work as well as sump skimmers. IMHO, the rate of water flowing past the skimmer matters not. The rate of water flowing THROUGH a skimmer of proper design matters a lot.
As to using the sump as a settling station in lieu of a skimmer feed as Scott suggested, that is a different type regimen than what we were discussing and I would have to agree with his supposition that slower is better.
And Scott, thank you for the reminder to suck the out sediment in my sump :>)
As to using the sump as a settling station in lieu of a skimmer feed as Scott suggested, that is a different type regimen than what we were discussing and I would have to agree with his supposition that slower is better.
And Scott, thank you for the reminder to suck the out sediment in my sump :>)
Good posts! all around.
I would imagine that a skimmer pump is going to draw water based on whatever its rated for, if the water going through the sump is quick or slow, but that is just a deduction. Pretty much every peice of equipment that is attached to a sump works on a principle of contact time, most however operate based on the pump injection that they use. So from that point of view, with the exception of the heater I would say time through the sump is a function of the individual pumps?? if that makes any sence.
On the other note, if their is any form of algae or sand your going to need the contact time, thats kind of a biological carved in stone thing. One of the other things that come into play is settlement, slower flow is going to allow for more settlement of detritus/food/waste and so on. Another would be bubble release, bubbles will naturally have protiens bind to them (the same as the skimmer) so making sure they dont pass back into the tank and release ia a good thing.
So you can make the case for slow just based on the above, is it a requirement, nope but it does have its benefits. When ever I have designed a tank I always concider the return water as a "Just dump it back in" and not truely intregal to the over all water movement in the tank.
Mojo
I would imagine that a skimmer pump is going to draw water based on whatever its rated for, if the water going through the sump is quick or slow, but that is just a deduction. Pretty much every peice of equipment that is attached to a sump works on a principle of contact time, most however operate based on the pump injection that they use. So from that point of view, with the exception of the heater I would say time through the sump is a function of the individual pumps?? if that makes any sence.
On the other note, if their is any form of algae or sand your going to need the contact time, thats kind of a biological carved in stone thing. One of the other things that come into play is settlement, slower flow is going to allow for more settlement of detritus/food/waste and so on. Another would be bubble release, bubbles will naturally have protiens bind to them (the same as the skimmer) so making sure they dont pass back into the tank and release ia a good thing.
So you can make the case for slow just based on the above, is it a requirement, nope but it does have its benefits. When ever I have designed a tank I always concider the return water as a "Just dump it back in" and not truely intregal to the over all water movement in the tank.
Mojo
I happen to agree with scooterman on this one. IMO slower sump time lets teh detritious settle out of the water column and gives the heaters reactors etc etc more time to work properly. Kind of like a swarm of mosquitos, if it flies right by you may only be able to kill one and get bit the same. If it hangs around you'll kill many and get bit over and over again.
I figure thats why Aqueon, Oceanic, Marineland and most every other manufacturer only uses 1" bulkheads on even a 210G tank. A total of 1200GPH throught he two overflows is a max of 5.7 x turnover on my 210.
I figure thats why Aqueon, Oceanic, Marineland and most every other manufacturer only uses 1" bulkheads on even a 210G tank. A total of 1200GPH throught he two overflows is a max of 5.7 x turnover on my 210.
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Skimmy
SKIM FU
you lost me mike...
as you yourself mentioned, it doesnt matter how much water is going past the skimmer, it can only process what it can process... period...
just because you put more dirty water moving faster around it, doesnt mean it injects, processes and cleans anymore water than normal.
so all those extra water molecules are not getting cleaned, and going right back to the display unaffected.
"my theory" (which isnt mine, i cant take credit for the most sucessfull german reefs) implies nothing about the numeric value, location, or seperation of the water volume, or pollutants it contains, it simply states your filtration devices in the sump are limited by the amount of water they processes, and providing more water to the sump than that is pointless... not that providing more water will mean they work less, but it's a waste.
the trick here people is to be aware of how much water the filters in your sump process per hour, and then to provide it that amount of water to clean.
why give it more than that??? spend those watts on providing more flow for the D/T.
Herefishyfishy
Smart Bass
Wasn't it Voltaire who said "if you wish to argue with me, you must first define your terms"
Now that we both have defined our terms, it sure appears we are in absolute 100% agreement.
For most efficient skimming, supply enough water to reach maximum capacity, no more no less.
OK, now what is the best flow for a refugium? LOLOLOLOLOL
DonW
R.I.P.
I've tried just about every sump flow rate. It seemed slow did fine as did extremely high but somewhere in the middle is where the tank suffered. My 50 flowed 3000gph through the sump and that was the only source of flow. So essential it worked as if the skimmer was in the display the flow was so high there was no real separation.
Don
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Don
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