Too much calcium?

[jeffnewt]

uhhh, this is not looking good. I did a w/c of 10 percent, and put a good ammount of liquid calcium about 28 hours ago. When I went to bed last night it looked ok. When I woke up it looked like this. I changed out about 20 percent of the water, and it still looks like this, I am about to tear it down and transfer it all to my 60 if this doesn't stop. I added a bag of carbon to my HOB filter to see if that would help. no luck yet.

 

[mmkeeper]

Have you tested the ca/alk and MG?

 

[plack]

"Have you tested the ca/alk and MG?"


I second that and or if you don't have Test kits.
Go to your Local Fish Store and have them test it.


"and put a good ammount of liquid calcium"

Likely the problem right there!

Large water changes will bring the entire tank more twoards the levels you get from your type of salt. Which also need to be tested!! or your tank will go out of balance..also too much added at once can also cause problems more so in smaller tanks !!!!

" I added a bag of carbon to my HOB filter to see if that would help"

I don't understand how it could help at all ?



Paul

 

[jeffnewt]

I will test it all again- but I didn't realize that it could get so cloudy form that. I know that phosphate can cause ca/alk to precipitate out, but I don't see how I could have added that.

Lets say my levels were off- wouldn't my second water change have helped? and the carbon was a thought I had to try- I was thinking that it was take out the super small particals. It was worth a shot.

 

[ReefferMan]

My tank did that when i added Alk and Ca @ the same time. What brand of CA did you add?

 

[Sherman]

Jeff, an overabundance of calcium and alkalinity, with a sufficiently high pH will cause a snow storm, as you're experiencing. Basically, the water exceeds full saturation, and the calcium and buffer precipitate. There is no way to stop this once it has started. Adding new water will only feed further precipitation until all the ca/alk is precipitated out. Typically, this should clear before too terribly long. I've never had to experience it, but I would think it would be clear in a matter of hours.

You desperately need to test both calcium and alkalinity, so you know what you're looking at. It would be good to know pH, as well. Once it's established this is a precipitation event (shown by alarmingly low levels of ca/alk, and potentially low pH), another large water change would be suggested. But it is important that you wait until the precipiation has completed. Additionally, carbon will not have any effect in a case like this.

 

[jeffnewt]

OK, so current readings are putting calcium at around 200, and alk at about 190.

But- I don't know if I trust the readings. If this massive precipatation of a few things is taking place like this- then In my mind it would be hard to get an accurate reading. I also hate this calcium testing method- its an api test kit, but I can't really tell the "purple" from "blue"- its a sliding scale and I could be off by 2 drops or more. Also, if I let the tube sit for about 20 seconds, I know I have greater diffusion and could put more drops in over time.

Oh, and the calcium I added was sea chem reef calcium liquid. I would like to know the diffrence between that and the other one that is called something diffrent, that claims to have "bio availible calcium" that says it is designed to "maintain" calcium.

The water is clearing up too.

 

[reefboy23]

calcium read 200 it should be at 420 ppm shutting off ur power heads might help ur tank settle a little faster. U might want to invest in a salifert test kit.

 

[Sherman]

Numbers that low definitely say precipitation, but alkalinity should be a different reading, something below 10. Either way, we know calcium plummeted. Bring on the water change!

 

[plack]

"Bring on the water change!"


And this does not mean a measley 10% . I'd do a minimum of 50% if possable 75% Just make shure it's the same temp. Next get ready to clean your pumps as the calcium is probably hardened on the magnet's/impellers and any auto top off sensors and or any probes ! Also any rowa phosphate remover is likely hard as a rock and unuseable as is !!

Don't forget to test your new salt water mix BEFORE adding it to the tank.



Paul

 

[jeffnewt]

Ah, its nice having a 20g...this won't take but a few minutes. The R/O is working on my water in back as we speak.

The water is crystal clear by the way. The dkh was 10.

 

[jeffnewt]

So now we are basically done fussing with the 20 for a little bit- calcium is about 170 I think. I am scared of adding it as this point. Am I really supposed to just add one cap every other day, and at that rate, It would take a month.. Then time for another w/c... is there a better product to raise up the calcium with? powdered?

Now for the fun part- I added about 6 caps of the liquid calcium to my 60 gallon yesterday afternoon. THe bottle says not to do more then 2 caps(5ml from now on) per 20 gallons, per day. I didn't do more then that, and with the sump its more like 70 gallons.

Now the clouds are setting in a bit, and I hate to admit it, but the hose to the skimmer appears to have some hardness on it *groan*. WTF, I was just dumping the red sea calcium in there, and I never had this happen. The calcium today read 200.

I did a quick 10% water change, mainly to get rid of a bunch of ditritus. It was said before this will do more harm then good, but I still cant figure out why that would be. Having said that, this is diffrent salt, I switched over to IO from a diffrent brand, which was bio-sea. I don't have the breakdown on that salt.

Last time this cleared up on its own, I don't think its going to be as bad, I think its allready past the point where it was the worst in the other tank. And please explain the reason for doing the 75% change after the other one cleared up?

 

[Sherman]

The water change will bring all your levels back to where they should be, without dosing. Get the calcium deficient water out, and the new, calcium filled water in. Again, I wouldn't consider this optional.

There are not "degrees" of precipitation events. You either have precipitation, and strip the water of the calcium and alkalinity, or you don't. How are you testing calcium? Could you take your water to the LFS and get a second test? Your test kits could also be bad.

 

[jeffnewt]

my test kit in a week old.

Are you saying that makeing water up from IO will bring that water to 400 ppm calcium?

why would the water react so bad to simply adding calcium, if it is oversaturated, wont the part that water can't hold at that temperature simply precip out and leave the rest? I seem to remember that from chem 101.

 

[morgan]

i had calcium at 600 once and never looked like that aye

 

[Sherman]

This isn't just calcium, it's also alkalinity. The precipitation isn't just a "too much calcium so it settled" situation, it's a chemical reaction that, if I understand correctly (not a chemistry guy), is based around the calcium and alkalinity actually binding together then dropping out of the water, forever unusable. It's sort of like adding too many people to an elevator. If it's overfilled, the whole elevator will drop, not just the last people who were too heavy. "Baby with the bath water." It's also not temperature sensitive, but it is actually pH sensitive, to a point. Higher pH is more likely to experience precipitation.

Yes, making up new water will bring your calcium levels back up, correctly. It's really not difficult. The new water already has sufficient levels (like 400ppm calcium), and the old water doesn't. Get the old water out, get the new in.

A water change is not optional here. It's already been 3 days, your livestock is suffering. Please, for the sake of your animals, change the water, and let's argue later.

 

[rayjay]

One should never add anything without checking to see if it is needed. From what was written I believe you had done so and want to bring the levels to a level you prefer.
As important as testing though, IMO, is that you don't add something without understanding what changes you are making in the system.
In the case of calcium, it is interrelated with alk and magnesium and without an understanding of how one affects the other puts the tank at risk.
Reefkeeping Online and Advanced Aquarist both have excellent articles archived and I think this one is the most recent that will probably help you in your understanding of what happened.
Understanding the relationship between calcium alk and magnesium

 

[jeffnewt]

It was the addition of calcium, not the total calcium that did that- and now its happening again...

 

[Sherman]

The addition of calcium caused an increase in total calcium. This, in addition to the alkalinity levels caused the precipitation. Rayjay, thanks for the link. I wasn't going to dig into the complication of variables like pH and magnesium, so maybe I came across rather incompletely.

Jeff. Change your water.

 

[jeffnewt]

huh? I posted that comment a long time ago and now I am just reading the respones before it? how did that happen? mabye I read my mail and thought I was reading the latest response...

Anyhow- I checked the levels before I added anything, it was never reading above 200. I could be too conservitive on the test kit, but theres no way I added more then 2 drops less then what the test ket called for.

The tank we are talking about now, has the precip event at 1 day old, not 3.

And how is all this even possible with my following of the dose reccomandations of the product used?

I will read that article in a few, for now I am not even home to deal with this.