Too Much Chaeto?

[Snowboarda42]

I have a giant mass of Chaetomorpha in my sump. Its about the size of a basketball, maybe bigger. Its packed with thousands of pods running around. It doesn't tumble either. It grows really fast.

I've read that you're supposed to keep it about the size of a softball. Why is that?

My only guess would be that the inside wouldn't get enough light, dieoff, and release what nutrients it was pulling out and defeat its own purpose.

Any input?

BTW, whats the "crap" that falls off it onto the bottom of my sump?

 

[Dirtsquirt]

I think the softball sized chaeto is to facilitate growth. My guess as to what that 'crap' that falls off is exactly that. It's things that accumulate on the algae itself due to the effect it has as a filter. I'm sure the pods contribute to this a bit.

I'd siphon all that nonsense up and take it out of circulation, I get alot of it out of my (now tiny) chaeto ball if I go and stir up the substrate.

-Dan

 

[thumperss]

i have a big block about the size of 1/2 a 10 gal tank i know a lot of people that have this much or more. i would just trim it and let it grow.
Brandon

 

[Krish]

The reason why you don't want a ball too big in there is because for one, that will mean you are holding excess nutrients in your system bound up in the chaeto which isn't good. It is recommended to trim it back to export these excess nutrients (phosphates, nitrates etc) out of your system. With trimming it back, it will also allow the ball of chaeto to tumble properly which is also recommended. So it's best to trim it down, let it grow out a bit, and repeat the process for most efficiency

 

[csababubbles]

krish, as long as it is bound up in the cheato, what negative effects could this be possibly having? it has already converted it in its own biological process to energy that is uses to grow so I don't see any negative impacts it can have on water quality. i used to trim mine only when it outgrew its holding tank. In addition I don't believe "tumbling" is necessary. my now-consumed cheato never tumbled yet new growth was visible on the entire mass with no dead parts. flow past the cheato is important to constantly deliver new nutrients and push growth but i don't believe a roll is necessary. what are your thoughts on my comments?

 

[Krish]

krish, as long as it is bound up in the cheato, what negative effects could this be possibly having? it has already converted it in its own biological process to energy that is uses to grow so I don't see any negative impacts it can have on water quality. i used to trim mine only when it outgrew its holding tank. In addition I don't believe "tumbling" is necessary. my now-consumed cheato never tumbled yet new growth was visible on the entire mass with no dead parts. flow past the cheato is important to constantly deliver new nutrients and push growth but i don't believe a roll is necessary. what are your thoughts on my comments?

Well, I've never actually kept chaeto so I'm only going on what I've read etc, but from what I understand, for chaeto to work effeciently it needs to be in a small ball and tumbling as expressed by Anthony Calfo many times here. Now that's not to say that chaeto won't perform it's purpose of binding up nutrients otherwise, but most effectively is said to be accomplished by the ball tumbling just as you would see macro's in the wild. As for the bound up nutrients, just think about the hobbyist that has a tank full of hair algae, cyno or something similar in their tank's they are battling. They are advised to siphon up and remove what they can to export any bound up nutrients out of their system and allow the cycle to continue all over again which is no different with chaeto which is also an algae. The reason why is because if the algae happens to die off then the bound up nutrients could be leached back into the system which you want to prevent. Here's a little quote I posted below which I took from one of Nikki's posts on chaeto which says basically the same thing. In any event, I'll see if I can get someone more experienced than myself to reply here to give us a bit more concrete facts/info on your questions. I'm still learning so what I'm saying may not totally be correct

Previously posted By NaH20
You can put too much in your system, however, it is hard to say how much is too much. It is nutrient and light dependent, so make sure it is getting enough light, and enough nutrients to keep it growing. By harvesting out the algae every so often, you will be removing the nutrients from you system, which is the point of growing macro algae. It is a matter of finding the balance with your system. When the algae dies off, it does leach the nutrients back into your system

 

[Jobiwan]

I've kept chaeto a few years, never have done the tumbling thing, I try to load up the whole fuge so all the water flow has to pass through it, I harvest a bit now and then so it doesn't get too dense, I also pull it apart, kinda fluffing it up for the same purpose, never have seen any kind of die off, it stays loaded with pods, mini stars and bristle worms throughout the mass of chaeto......

 

[Boomer]

Things can work differently for different tanks and set-ups. The issue is will others have the required flow rate, lighing, water chem, etc., and if there is not die off. And the "balling" method maybe be more efficient in up-take in x amount of time. The higher the rate of growth the more efficient it will be in taking up nutrients and balling or pruning often increases that rate, just like any other plant. Just because something is growing does not mean it is efficient as it can be in taking up nutreints.

 

[Jobiwan]

On the other hand a tumbling setup would indicate a smaller biomass of chaeto as compared to a setup in which the entire area is taken up with chaeto, it could be argued that the softball sized tumbler may take up more nutrients per gram of chaeto for those of us who like to speculate without any actual data, I am often guilty of this, but one would think that a much larger static biomass of chaeto would take up more nutrients overall.

 

[csababubbles]

exactly, so why harvest it regularly? i think let it grow as big as your space allows so it can absorb the most nutrients possible.

 

[Scooterman]

People say absorb as if it made it all disappear, to me there will always be something left & harvesting will do just that & remove what is left, also harvesting promotes growth so your ball is smaller but that is because your cutting it back regularly removing what is unwanted so in theory you can actually remove more that way. Think about the perfect lawn, If you never cut it, the growth rate slows down, yea it gets real tall but if you notice how long it takes to get like that compared to a lawn you trim weekly, it can grow an inch over night & it is richer & healthier if kept up.
That is my thoughts on it but I'm not a pro at growin chaeto. so that is my opinion on it

 

[Jobiwan]

What you said Scooty, I just harvest it when it gets a bit dense, I pull the remainder apart until it completely fills the tank again and leave it alone until it gets kinda dense again, that methodology has worked well for me, we all have our techniques, if everyone did things the same no experienced reefkeeper would ever learn anything, wouldn't be much point to forums then would there, just post FAQ's for the newbies......

 

[Krish]

I agree that every tank is different which is the joy of the hobby. What works great for me may not be the case for someone else so it's always best to go with what works best for your application. Take my old setups for example...When I had my tank up and running after it was what I'd consider fully matured, it wouldn't have made much sense at all for me to use chaeto or any other macro algae for nutrient export because I don't think it would have done me much good. I kept my tank stable for many months until I decided to tear down and take a small break from the hobby with un-detectable traces of any excess nutrients (nitrates etc) by just doing regular tank maintenance,not over stocking or over feeding, "skimming", running my phosban reactor, and allowing my live rock to do the rest. Unless a macro algae could out compete my live rock for any available excess nutrients that was left over after skimming, water changes etc was performed then the algae would just starve and die off so no point in using a macro in my case. However, for someone else, without the use of a macro algae for nutrient export their tank wouldn't do so well so you have to go with what works best for you. Just my 2 cents

 

[burning2nd]

Byropsis PWN's Cheto.....

 

[Sherman]

I am another in the Huge chaeto block club. My chaeto takes up my entire fuge (13g). As it becomes more and more dense, it begins to die off on the top, and I cut it in half and re-fluff. My theory, also stated above, is that while a softball sized clump may grow faster than a basketball sized clump, the basketball sized clump has 5x the amount of chaeto that's doing the growing.

Another piece of anecdotal jabber: a friend has a dedicated 40g fuge just for his chaeto on his 240g. That fuge is one solid block of green. When he picks up the chaeto, it comes out as a cube. He harvests 50% monthly and it always comes back.

 

[Jobiwan]

I've been keeping score, the huge chaeto block group wins hands down with the most popular votes, although the supreme court may hand the victory to the baseball tumblers....

 

[Boomer]

On the other hand a tumbling setup would indicate a smaller biomass of chaeto as compared to a setup in which the entire area is taken up with chaeto, it

Not necessarily. It may well have a smaller biomass but you to look at the amount to biomass produced in x time. A 1 lb biomass of balls vs a 1 lb biomass of a block at the start. In 60 days how many lbs have each increased, in a tumbled ball system vs. a untumbled unpruned block system. Why do you guys think people prune plants. If you just let them grow, often on their own, the get long and lanky and end up producing less total biomass in the end and are less dense. Algae is no different than house plants or a lawn. The balling in the end will have more total surface area, as it is denser and will do more exporting. Try weighing a 9 " ball or cube unpruned vs 9 - 3 " balls via the balling method and see what you get.


You guys "seem" to be defying the laws of Horticulture, greenhouses, Botanical gardens, FW planted tanks and even Macro -algae marine planted tanks.


Scoot has said about the same thing

 

[Jobiwan]

Boomer, I'll pit my 60 gallon fuge of chaeto against your tumbling baseball any day. Let's not get too lost in the science, I also graduated from the 8th grade... PS As you have seen in the thread, we prune frequently...

 

[Boomer]

I'm not lost in the science are you we prune frequently...
It is not we it is you and Sherman

but one would think that a much larger static biomass of chaeto would take up more nutrients overall.

That is really not so in the botanical world.

So far all any of us are doing is just talking and there is no proof of either

You have not even tried the balling method, where Anthony has done both and what does he say

 

[Jobiwan]

Well, actually I have tried the balling method, I found it to be less effective due to the much smaller biomass neccessary to create a situation where it would tumble, I sell my excess on ebay, my quantity available to sell went way up about threefold in the same refugia, perhaps the amount of biomass is way more than three times the tumbling mass and is hence less efficient, but who cares, the end result is I export more nutrients with my less efficient system, as I said, in this hobby focusing too much on scientific minutia can lead to a less optimal approach, just my two cents...