vodka dosing

[dngspot]

Am I missing something? I thought it went like this Ammonia, Nitrite then the less toxic Nitrate. I went through an ammonia spike then a nitrite spike, both are at 0 now, and then ended with 20 ppm nitrate. I have not had a visible spike of ammonia or nitrite since I added the perculas. As I add fish I realize that I will go through small cycles but I do not believe that I am in one now.

 

[DonW]

Am I missing something? I thought it went like this Ammonia, Nitrite then the less toxic Nitrate. I went through an ammonia spike then a nitrite spike, both are at 0 now, and then ended with 20 ppm nitrate. I have not had a visible spike of ammonia or nitrite since I added the perculas. As I add fish I realize that I will go through small cycles but I do not believe that I am in one now.

Your not missing anything your just leaving out the last step. In a FO system this doesnt matter but of course in a reef we want Nitrate to be 0 or close to it. With no fish load the lr need to grow enough denitrifying bacteria to get rid of the nitrate. If its not keeping up with the nitrate with little to no fish then its not ready to be a reef. Make sense?

Don

 

[dngspot]

I understand you, It was my understanding that the bacteria that we need to remove nitrate in a gas form are anaerobic. The best place for these bacteria is in a no to low oxygen environment. This would be in a deep sand bed or plenum substrate. I am unsure how rock performs as a anaerobic environment.
Doesn’t vodka boost bacteria that use nitrate and PO4, then we skim them out?

 

[DonW]

I understand you, It was my understanding that the bacteria that we need to remove nitrate in a gas form are anaerobic. The best place for these bacteria is in a no to low oxygen environment. This would be in a deep sand bed or plenum substrate. I am unsure how rock performs as a anaerobic environment.
Doesn’t vodka boost bacteria that use nitrate and PO4, then we skim them out?

LR does the same thing as a dsb thus why we can have bb reefs and why we use the type of rock we use. If you jump the gun before the bacteria stabilizes then your playing catch up. Alot of times this just bites you in the butt. The vodka feeds the bacteria and forces it to reproduce at a much faster rate.
There is no reason to use vodka unless your trying to speed up the process.
If a tank cant keep nitrates at 0 without vodka then there is something wrong and that should be addressed prior to considering vodka. JMO

Don

 

[gas4544]

Your not missing anything your just leaving out the last step. In a FO system this doesnt matter but of course in a reef we want Nitrate to be 0 or close to it. With no fish load the lr need to grow enough denitrifying bacteria to get rid of the nitrate. If its not keeping up with the nitrate with little to no fish then its not ready to be a reef. Make sense?

Don

My understanding is that denitrifying bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates. As far as I know, there is no bacteria to break down nitrates.

Ways to remove nitrate from your system include water changes and using a nitrate consuming plant in a refugium.

Gary

 

[dngspot]

I have never had a problem reducing nitrates. I have used calupera and done fine.

 

[DonW]

My understanding is that denitrifying bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates. As far as I know, there is no bacteria to break down nitrates.

Ways to remove nitrate from your system include water changes and using a nitrate consuming plant in a refugium.

Gary

Really. Do some research on NNR. This is a vodka dosing thread the vodka is feeding bacteria. One reason this is dangerous to those that do not understand NNR.

Don

 

[gas4544]

I found it, NNR = "natural nitrate reduction".

From: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-10/newbie/index.php

An excerpt:
"The Vodka method is characterized by the controlled dosage of a carbon source (vodka or other) to stimulate the growth of bacteria to assimilate Nitrogen and Phosphate. The nutrient and bacteria are exported via protein skimming. Skimmer production can be extremely high and any mechanical media will clog more rapidly due to bio-film production."

Here is another article on the subject of vodka dosing:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

An excerpt explains:
"The addition of vodka/ethanol is thought to increase bacterial biomass. For this, vodka addition would result in bacterial growth and reproduction. During this process nutrients in the water (including NO3 and PO4) are taken up for the formation of new macromolecules that are needed in cell synthesis and viability. Due to this rapid growth and reproduction, NO3 and PO4 can drop quickly from detectable levels by most test kits on the market. The increased biomass of the bacteria leads to a notable increase in skimmate production, removing more waste than without vodka addition. The increased skimmate is thought to remove the bacteria or bacterial biproducts that have assimilated the NO3 and PO4 within the water column leading to NO3 and PO4 depletion."

In my original post, I said that denitrifying bacteria is responsible for converting nitrites to nitrates. It appears that some other types of bacteria assimilate NO3 and PO4 and then are skimmed out of the system.

The assimilating bacteria strains are already present in our tanks. We are feeding them an organic carbon source to increase their populations in a carefully controlled manner and then relying on them to assimilate excess nutrients that are then skimmed out of the water.

Does that sum it up?


Thanx,

Gary

 

[DonW]

Yup but the bacteria also resides deep with in the pours of the LR thus why it is called "live". If everything is in balance the LR is all that it is needed to remove nitrates. The vodka enables us to feed an over abundance of food without causing excess nutrients.

Don

 

[rlugo29]

You are looking down a 5 gallon buckett. It has about 6 inches of skimmate in it. This is how much it has pulled over 1 week.

Thanks,
David

I bet that stinks. I hope its in a fish room or basement.
BTW, this is a great thread.

 

[freetareef]

the pores in the live rock can have a o2 devoid area for no3 reduction. that is the nnr prop of live rock.

 

[dngspot]

I bet that stinks. I hope its in a fish room or basement.
BTW, this is a great thread.

...Garage
It does not smell that bad but, I am not sticking my head down low enougn to smell it.

 

[freetareef]

all right. due to some luck i now have a 150 display with a 40 sump with 35 gallons of h2o. the skimmer is a etss 800 rated up to a 400 gallon tank so i am assuming this is also a agressive skimmer. i am tracking the lvls very carfully and will be starting vodka when my skimmer kicks in all the way. will be posting amounts and effects, both visable and chemical.

any before and after vodka pics floating around here??? i like it....

 

[Sakimaru8]

"The Vodka method is characterized by the controlled dosage of a carbon source (vodka or other) to stimulate the growth of bacteria to assimilate Nitrogen and Phosphate. The nutrient and bacteria are exported via protein skimming. Skimmer production can be extremely high and any mechanical media will clog more rapidly due to bio-film production"

"The addition of vodka/ethanol is thought to increase bacterial biomass. For this, vodka addition would result in bacterial growth and reproduction. During this process nutrients in the water (including NO3 and PO4) are taken up for the formation of new macromolecules that are needed in cell synthesis and viability. Due to this rapid growth and reproduction, NO3 and PO4 can drop quickly from detectable levels by most test kits on the market. The increased biomass of the bacteria leads to a notable increase in skimmate production, removing more waste than without vodka addition. The increased skimmate is thought to remove the bacteria or bacterial biproducts that have assimilated the NO3 and PO4 within the water column leading to NO3 and PO4 depletion."

All the above is based on the Redfield ratio wikipedia: Redfield ratio or Redfield stoichiometry is the molecular ratio of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus in phytoplankton. The stoichiometric ratio is C:N = 106:16:1. Redfield described the remarkable congruence between the chemistry of the deep ocean and the chemistry of living things in the surface ocean.

Here is my understanding, if the N and/or P is high in the tank; it will need lots of carbon source so that the bacteria can process them to maintain the Ratio.
Carbon sources are ethanol or grain alcohol aka Vodka or Everclear. Other carbon sources are sugar (glucose,sucrose,..) and vinegar (acetate).

Vodka dosing will increase the carbon source in the tank. To maintain that ratio, bacteria will consume N & P that the skimmer will remove. Thus, you must have a skimmer to remove the bacteria with Vodka, sugar or vinegar dosing. Carbon dosing a tank requires a working skimmer to remove the N & P.

Once the excess N & P are removed i.e, PO4 & No3 reading is zero, you can maintain a minimum carbon dosage to keep N & P in check.


As for dosage, it will depend on the tank's C:N. Experiment based on the recommended dosage from RK link.

 

[freetareef]

i am going to follow the guide lines from the rk link. .1 ml is .1cc i think. anyone care to comment?

 

[tike]

I just used an old syringe from my salifert calcium test kit. It is measured in mL.

 

[luke33]

^^^ exact tool i use : ) 3ml a day in my 160g and its never looked so good since i've been dosing.

 

[CRASHFIREJOE]

Yes .1ml is also known as .1cc

i am going to follow the guide lines from the rk link. .1 ml is .1cc i think. anyone care to comment?

 

[freetareef]

cool, thats what i thought but didn't remeber for sure. thanks

 

[tamarindthai]

start to read this tread,,start to getting drunk alredy,,iam tacking along ,,very interesting subject dosing booze in the reef tank.