When did the livestock for sale section policy change?

[johnpeezy]

I'm not a part of the groupbuy that was so abruptly closed, but still it made me angry.

When was the policy changed? It used to state on the little thumbnail section something to the effect of "organize groupbuys here".

it didn't say "organize groupbuys strictly from sponsors of reeffrontiers here"

now it does not say anything regarding the organization of groupbuys at all.

I feel the coral morphologic groupbuy thread that was closeed was no different then ANY OTHER groupbuy ran here.

I would like an explanation as to why this groupbuy was affected and none of the countless groupbuys that have been ran through this site have been.


I have personally ran a coralmorhpoligic groupbuy on this site with no problems in the past.

I have seen other groupbuys ran on this site as well that were not sponsors of reeffrontiers that went on with no problems also.

Whats with the change, can't you all leave well enough alone?

It's your general members of this site running/organizing groupbuys from buisnesses.

Not buisnesses organizing/running groupbuys for their own self personal gains.

Generally these groupbuys are put together to achieve one thing FREE SHIPPING.

it not like the reeffrontiers members are making money on organizing a groupbuy, no there jiust saving it.

so the next time I want corals from a site thats not a sponsor of RF are you guys gonna pay for shipping?

 

[Krish]

Nice!!

Maybe you should go back and read the final response on the thread that was closed closely before you start threads like this. The thread being closed had nothing at all to do with it being a group buy as there is nothing wrong with group buys as such (although on most forums group buys can only be made with sponsor's and no-one else). In addition, there isn't even anything wrong with not buying from a sponsor as it is your money and your choice! There is however something wrong with advertising a company that is not a sponsor here out on the open forum. Why should they get free advertising when the sponsors can't? We've even had members list names and phones numbers of companies that aren't sponsors here which they know is against forum policy. What I think has happened is alot of members think the for sale section here was designed to be an ebay or craig's list. The forum was not designed to be anything like that, but rather designed as a small luxury so that members here could sell, trade or give away a few personal items they may have that they wanted to get rid of and nothing more. Some have even admitted that they use this section to sell stuff all the time to keep them in the hobby which in a nut shell spells income and can be considered as commercial.

Whats with the change, can't you all leave well enough alone?

Well enough for who?? Just curious but do you support RF with sponsorship or premium membership to help keep the forum online?? Maybe make donations?? Sponsor's are basically the ones keeping the site a float incase you didn't know. The for sale forum is just a luxury for members here, but when you have members abusing the rules or finding loop holes in it, changes have to be made. This is why new rules were put into place (eg 50 posts and 30 days for new members to post in the for sale sections) and more are to come real soon so keep an eye out for them.

With that said, please use the forum for what it was designed for...Discussing the reef keeping hobby. People are getting too caught up in this buying and selling stuff here which is where the majority of the problems being reported are coming from. People sign up here just to buy and sell and nothing more. If that is the case then I think they need to go elsewhere as this is a forum designed to discuss the hobby and nothing more. Hopefully the few bad apples here don't spoil it for everyone and have the for sale sections removed altogether

 

[Krish]

I'm not a part of the groupbuy that was so abruptly closed, but still it made me angry.

FYI, Eric (eww) who's thread was closed was very understanding about the whole thing and even commended RF staff as well for doing a great job here. Just thought you should know that seeing the thread being closed made you angry, but not the member who's thread was closed

 

[johnpeezy]

obviously you seemed a little prepared for a post of this nature, thats great. Your response has generated quite a few more questions from me.

Would the thread have been closed if he had just stated who the groupbuy was from and nothing about the quality of there product?

I'm just wondering how someone can reasonablly make a thread about a groupbuy through a non-sponsorship buisness that does not violate the upgradded commercial posting policy. It is after all important to state WHO the groupbuy is from after all, at what point is it percieved as advertisment?



Just because I am a basic member and not a premium member nor, a sponsor do you feel that I do not support reeffrontiers by being active?

I feel if there are no members there are no sponsors, whats the point. They sponsor this site to advertise to us.



What is considered abuse?

honestly, not to single EWW out but, it just so happened EWW has become the perfect example as to what I am talking about. I'm pretty sure this was the first or near the first groupbuy thread they started up ever.



Where is the most activity on this site?
Its just a guess but its probably a combonation of the livestock and equipment for sale sections. Your really thinnking about shuting down one of the largest draws on RF.




Is the buy and sell section what most people use the site for, honestly?

I think so, I mean, I can call an apple a goose as much as I want, it still does not change the fact that its an apple. I feel a large ammount of the members ARE here just to BUY and sell items. It may not be the type of people the site wants but they increase the sites numbers right?



And finally, What can be done to make sponsors happy and yet at the same time understand that people have a mind of there own and will continue to buy things from where they want as opposed to where they are told?

basiclly If I want something from a buisness thats not a sponsor of RF it is not going to stop me from buying what I want where I want. I'm a vouleenter at a petstore and I buy things from cherrycorals all the time with complete and total disregard of any type of loyalty to "my" petstore, plain and simple I feel he has better product. How could somebody expect a public forum to act any diffrently then how things are going now?

 

[dieden]

No one is "telling" you to purchase only from sponsors. What is being said is that the sponsors pay for a product, the advertising to a crowd that is their exact market. Why would sponsors continue to pay for said right if the RF staff allowed anyone to plug their business? No sponsorships means that this enormous resource for many inexperienced reefers (me included) would no longer exist.

 

[dieden]

It is simple business logic...

I am glad that the RF staff restrict eroneous plugging of product and businesses. I have surfed on many sites, and removing all the useless threads that exist only to produce reveanue for a member makes the site more effective at its original purpose..... Educating Reefers.

If the company involved in the goup buy is understanding of the reasons behind the closing of the thread, and fully support the RF staff, why the big stink. You use a free service and do so under the parameters determined by the moderators.

 

[johnpeezy]

No one is "telling" you to purchase only from sponsors. What is being said is that the sponsors pay for a product, the advertising to a crowd that is their exact market. Why would sponsors continue to pay for said right if the RF staff allowed anyone to plug their business? No sponsorships means that this enormous resource for many inexperienced reefers (me included) would no longer exist.

I totally agree with what you typed.
The situation that spurred this creation of this thread was a groupbuy, created by a member of reefrontiers. Not a groupbuy created by a buisness for the intent of making money.

Dude just wanted free shipping, I'd do the same thing. When does this become free advertisement as opposed to a fellow hobbyist trying to save a few bucks?

 

[johnpeezy]

It is simple business logic...

I am glad that the RF staff restrict eroneous plugging of product and businesses. I have surfed on many sites, and removing all the useless threads that exist only to produce reveanue for a member makes the site more effective at its original purpose..... Educating Reefers.

If the company involved in the goup buy is understanding of the reasons behind the closing of the thread, and fully support the RF staff, why the big stink. You use a free service and do so under the parameters determined by the moderators.

Again this is all fine and dandy I'm glad RF rids the site of random buisness plugs and such. The company involved again was choosen by a member here on RF, which under previous circumstances wasn't a problem with the moderators.....until now, so why were these parameters changed.

 

[ac7av]

I thought that there was no user sponsorship going on at this time do to some problem or changes? I tried to get a premium membership a while ago and couldn’t? Has this changed?

I think a very high minority of people do come to this site to just post in the for sale sections. The stupid posts by so many people in the last 6 months with less then 50 posts prove it when they start digging up old posts with dumb responses like tagging along 20 times in an hour. Heck when I look on there some times the majority of people are on the for sale section.

I personally don’t see what the problem is. If this was a member’s only site I could understand but this is a free open site. If we have to sensor this then where does it end?

 

[dieden]

I see it the exact opposite... If I enjoy this resource for free, I accept the parameters (even if a bit inconvenient). If I am a member of a payment required site I expect quite a bit more autonomy in my posts and threads as I am then the sponsor (customer).

As it currently stands, you and I are beneficiaries to a financial transaction in which we have no financial obligation. IE... We don't make the rules.

 

[lvsuckerfish]

well I think the main issue for me would be (which really isn't an issue) since I have been a member to the site. I do not think I seen one post from an admin other then the site owner I believe I seen post by alot of wannabe admin's btw congrats Sid just busting your chops! now all of a sudden this change! this is kinda like feeding a kid cake all his life then boom taking it away.

Did any of the sponser's complain about group buys as these happen on every fourm this is the first fourm I ever heard this happening too. why all of a sudden the change? and I am curious as to what other fourms do not allow group buys from non supporting vendors? other then RC as they are in thier own world anyway can't say or post anything with out being banned lol. I understand the reason for having sponser's as I was a sponser admin on my home town fourm and worked to get the ones I have on that site. I never heard them complain not a single time. But if this was due to a sponser complaint I guess I could understand in a way, but other then that I do not see a reason for the drastic change.

and lastly why was this the only one affected for a groupbuy?

 

[Krish]

Would the thread have been closed if he had just stated who the groupbuy was from and nothing about the quality of there product?

Not sure how to explain it any easier for you to understand but I will try. It has nothing to do with the product, the quality, the quantity or it being a group buy. It has to do with a company being advertised that is not a sponsor here so the name is all it took.

Just because I am a basic member and not a premium member nor, a sponsor do you feel that I do not support reeffrontiers by being active?

Not at all! By being active or even just being a member here it shows you support RF. We all support RF who post here (premium member or not). What you fail to realize though is the sponsor, who is actually paying the site to be here is being out-competed by the hobyist who gets to advertise their goods for free and if that is not enough, they complain when they are reprimanded for not following simple guidlines.

Where is the most activity on this site?
Its just a guess but its probably a combonation of the livestock and equipment for sale sections. Your really thinnking about shuting down one of the largest draws on RF.

Well for starters, no one said that the for sale threads will be shut down. However, the rate at which things are going, more and more restrictions will probably be tagged on as result of people abusing the user agreement. You seem to not understand what the site's purpose is so incase you missed the thread or note, here is something Chuck posted

Due to so many new members believing this is a great place to join and jump in and buy and sell we have had to put some restrictions in place. This place is first and foremost a reefkeeping information sharing site, not a glorified classified ad site.

which you can find here. http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49967

Like I said, these forums are just luxuries and if you feel that your main reason for being here is to buy and sell, then maybe you should find somewhere else to post But going back on your question...I wouldn't say that most activity is in these sections, but rather a better description would be that the majority of RF's reported posts and problems come from these sections.

And finally, What can be done to make sponsors happy and yet at the same time understand that people have a mind of there own and will continue to buy things from where they want as opposed to where they are told?

What can be done to make sponsor's happy IMO is to enforce rules here that people are just ignoring and getting by on. In addition add a few more for those who have found loopholes in the system and enforce them as well (which will be seen soon enough). People can and do have the free will to buy from who they want to. It's no secret everyone does it and that will never change. No one is asking anyone to change. However, on this forum, if you want to retain your membership here there are rules and guidlines you have to follow one of which is not promoting businesses that aren't sponsors out in the open forum. If a person doesn't like the rules, then they can go somewhere else. It is simple. I think some people got really spoiled and comfortable being here. Most forums don't allow you to do group buys out in the open forum unless from a sponsor. Others only allow you a limited number of posts a week/month in the for sale sections. You guys have the liberty to post as many times as you want and yet still complain

In any event, there is a lot going on behind the scenes that no-one knows much about so I wouldn't jump to conclusions about things too quickly. Things are how they are for a reason. In due time you guys will be informed on changes being made.

 

[johnpeezy]

I see it the exact opposite... If I enjoy this resource for free, I accept the parameters (even if a bit inconvenient). If I am a member of a payment required site I expect quite a bit more autonomy in my posts and threads as I am then the sponsor (customer).

As it currently stands, you and I are beneficiaries to a financial transaction in which we have no financial obligation. IE... We don't make the rules.

okay let me rephrase myself again:

the parameters have changed....
Why have they chqanged?

 

[ac7av]

Nice!!

Just curious but do you support RF with sponsorship or premium membership to help keep the forum online?? Maybe make donations??

Hey Krish,
I just checked again and the premium membership is not available at this time still so what’s up with that? I’ve tried in the past and cant, you made is sound like why don’t you? How can we if it’s not available?

 

[noworries]

I like how the first response, in the first reply to the original post, says "Nice "

What's that all about? Almost like "let's get it on".

 

[Krish]

well I think the main issue for me would be (which really isn't an issue) since I have been a member to the site. I do not think I seen one post from an admin other then the site owner I believe I seen post by alot of wannabe admin's btw congrats Sid just busting your chops! now all of a sudden this change! this is kinda like feeding a kid cake all his life then boom taking it away.

Did any of the sponser's complain about group buys as these happen on every fourm this is the first fourm I ever heard this happening too. why all of a sudden the change? and I am curious as to what other fourms do not allow group buys from non supporting vendors? other then RC as they are in thier own world anyway can't say or post anything with out being banned lol. I understand the reason for having sponser's as I was a sponser admin on my home town fourm and worked to get the ones I have on that site. I never heard them complain not a single time. But if this was due to a sponser complaint I guess I could understand in a way, but other then that I do not see a reason for the drastic change.

and lastly why was this the only one affected for a groupbuy?

There have been many complaints by sponsors here about the for sale threads. Not just recently either, but back when the new set of rules were put in place (50 posts/30 day criteria for posting in these sections.) Then when members found a loop hole around that, a new thing was put in place where you had to meet the criteria first to be able to even see these forums (for sale forums). The rules have always been there, but just not enough staff present to enforce them all so alot slipped by and this is where everyone got comfortable. This is partly why new staff is here and is growing as you will soon see. I myself was asked to come back which is why I am here again now. You wouldn't know this because you weren't a member back then, but I was a mod here a few years ago and gave it up after the birth of my first child now 2 years later I am back to help out as a super mod.

In any event, changes will take place. People will still be allowed to sell their own goods and so forth, but within guidlines that will be enforced unfortunately for some

 

[dieden]

Sorry, when you put "let's get it on" I instantly heard Marvin ***'s voice... Good song

 

[johnpeezy]

company being advertised that is not a sponsor here so the name is all it took.

Okay, okay, you said earlier in this thread groupbuys even by buisness not sponsoring RF are fine, but we just can't say there name is open forum?

so we would have to do something like this for example:

title: Groupbuy for corals Federal Way

subject: I'm going to be setting up a groupbuy for corals if your interested in participating send me a PM.

is that reasonable?

as opposed to
title: <insert non-sponsor buisness name here> groupbuy Federal Way...etc..

So apparently optin number 2 is now considered free advertisement?

Like I said, these forums are just luxuries and if you feel that your main reason for being here is to buy and sell, then maybe you should find somewhere else to post

This may be hard for you to believe, but alot of the members that post on these boards also post on other boards as well. I really don't to be quite honest and what you just said is what I'm worried about happening.

maybe I and a large ammount of others will wind up going somewhere else , which is what I'm trying to avoid right here and now for myself and others. Seeking clarification about features of this forum that I use I hope is not being taken as complaining I hope, considering a groupbuy from the same company was ran a few days prior to the one that was closed. I saw a change and I asked about it.

and btw if I don't like the rules of the site I WILL leave.

 

[noworries]

Sorry, when you put "let's get it on" I instantly heard Marvin ***'s voice... Good song

I like how *** is a bad word. And this site blocks it. His last name actually has an 'e' at the end. But for this site's sake Marvin 'homosexual' should suffice. LOL

 

[dieden]

Seriously... The word *** is blotted out even when it is someone's name. That is funny right there