Where did the science go?

[DonW]

I don't know. What do you guys think about the industry as a whole? Do you think it has changed to accomodate folks that are looking for a quick fix? Do you think the industry is advancing for the better? Especially since it was pointed out about the nano systems. That was a good point - these are easy all-in-one units. Like the one infomercial says, "set it and forget it".

Thoughts....

Nanos as you know require an even better understanding of the bio process and reasoning. It doesnt bother me to se someone like Chuck downsizing to a nano. Its the new folks that start off with a nano without the knowlege and try to mimic folks like Chuck without a clue.

One thing this hobby has turned into is a monkey see monkey do enviroment. For a beginner I'd say dont be that monkey. You cannot mimic another reefer and expect that you will have the same results. You will be missing key information that is required to do what the other person is doing. Go back to the basic science and make your reef your own.

As I stated earlier we are all guilty. Those of us with experience are withholding information. Those that do not have experience are not learning what they need to learn. Irregardless of the the reasoning behind both it is not doing the hobby or RF anygood.

The intension of this thread is to try to get folks to move back on track with REAL reefkeeping.

Thanks

Don

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Nanos as you know require an even better understanding of the bio process and reasoning. It doesnt bother me to se someone like Chuck downsizing to a nano. Its the new folks that start off with a nano without the knowlege and try to mimic folks like Chuck without a clue.
The intension of this thread is to try to get folks to move back on track with REAL reefkeeping.

Thanks

Don

"Nano"which is a relative word, can have vastly different definitions based on experience and understanding. My friends and I refer to my 72 as a nano. It really is a nano. I have a hard time even imagining keeping anything much smaller without a ton of electronics trying to maintain stability.

There are plug and play nanos that can do a good job. You get what you pay for. ELOS makes some good units but these quality"nanos" cost more than what I had sunk into my old fully equiped 180.

Seen three times as many nanos crash than large tanks. Seen even more beginners lose hard corals they weren't ready for in any sized tank. The BIGGEST obstacle with maintaining nanos: stability.

 

[jamiehill]

Seen three times as many nanos crash than large tanks. Seen even more beginners lose hard corals they weren't ready for in any sized tank. The BIGGEST obstacle with maintaining nanos: stability.

I would agree with this as well. I have the 120 at home and a 12 at work. I spend a lot more time working on the nano than I do on my 120.

A couple months back I had to move the tank while the carpets were being replaced in our office. I came in on Saturday and moved the tank. Evidently, one of the corals died and set off a chain reaction. When I came back in on Monday, 75% of my corals were dead as well as my pistol shrimp & goby pair. I almost scrapped the tank. I have started over with it, and it is coming along, but has been a lot of work.

With my 120, I do a water change every couple weeks and just keep an eye on it.

 

[Skimmy]

kudos to you don!!!!

i got one word for this post...

TROOF!!

 

[Frankie]

As I stated earlier we are all guilty. Those of us with experience are withholding information. Those that do not have experience are not learning what they need to learn.

A lot of time I find it hard to explain what it is I am doing right. It reminds me of riding a bicycle. Mine I can ride perfectly and feel very comfortable doing so. Yours seems awkward and stiff in it's handling.
My biggest suggestion to people is to spend more time reading and less time asking. Most of what I have learned over the years is trial and error and non stop reading. When I have a problem I rarely ask for advice but dig into the threads for my answers.

 

[Frankie]

I would also like to correct my earlier statement. I think nano's are awesome. (in the right hands )

 

[Curtswearing]

There was a time that when someone had a N issue, good old Nikki (linki)would just post a link to an article explaining the bio processes. That info in itself was pure science. It either got the person thinking or overwhelmed and someone like Mojo would step in and put it in simple english terms we could all understand.

Trust me, I've done plenty of those types of posts myself. I would spend a lot of time quoting and explaining and I always included a link. Then the persons next post was, "What should I do?" They didn't want to understand the science. In fact, it was clear they didn't even read what I quoted nor the links I, Nikki, or others provided. Frankly, those responses take a lot of time to type out and research. It's frustrating when they are all ignored.

Great thread. It all started when nano's became popular imo. All in one, small, easy to do (LFS BS sales) reef aquariums. Next thing you know the forums are flooded with people wanting to know how many fish they can fit in there and why the sand bottom is covered in red slimy stuff.

I disagree Frankie. Do you know how many nano and pico tanks I've sold? Most of the picos were for offices as well as many of the nano tanks. However, I've sold many nano tanks for home too for various reasons. With that said, I had a trick up my sleeve. I would always ask, "If you could only have one fish, which one would it be?" Depending on their answer, I might say come back in a few months and get a tank that can support that animal or I might say, OK, I'll ring you out on this nano.

I don't know. What do you guys think about the industry as a whole? Do you think it has changed to accomodate folks that are looking for a quick fix? Do you think the industry is advancing for the better? Especially since it was pointed out about the nano systems. That was a good point - these are easy all-in-one units. Like the one infomercial says, "set it and forget it".

The industry hasn't changed at all. Just like any industry, it exists to makes money and they provide supplies and/or services to others and people have jobs as a result. Some companies choose to be moral or responsible, some do not, some LFS's are responsible, some are not. Even within certain companies, certain people are responsible and some or not. I could go on about this ad infinitum.

I don't have my big tanks anymore. Now all I have is a 28G HQI nano, a 12G nano, and a 9G nano. I don't run them as set up by the manufacturers because I understand the flaws in each of these tanks. They want to maximize profits and as a capitalist, that's what they SHOULD DO as long as it's done responsibly. With that said, I obviously don't have a problem with nano's.

Seen three times as many nanos crash than large tanks. Seen even more beginners lose hard corals they weren't ready for in any sized tank. The BIGGEST obstacle with maintaining nanos: stability.

EXACTLY! There is less margin for error so you need to keep on top of things. However, with that said, I can name a number of 11, 12, and 13 year olds who are successfully keeping nano tanks that I sold them (because that's all they can afford) and faithfully, they would come in with their parents with a water sample along with their log-book of prior readings and purchases (which I required). If pre-teens can do it successfully (with a little help), adults can do it too. After the first couple of times, I used to make them do the test themselves in front of me and then log the results.

 

[DonW]

EXACTLY! There is less margin for error so you need to keep on top of things. However, with that said, I can name a number of 11, 12, and 13 year olds who are successfully keeping nano tanks that I sold them (because that's all they can afford) and faithfully, they would come in with their parents with a water sample along with their log-book of prior readings and purchases (which I required). If pre-teens can do it successfully (with a little help), adults can do it too. After the first couple of times, I used to make them do the test themselves in front of me and then log the results.

A tank log gives you the ability to reason without having to do everything by memory. Its one of the easiest way to keep track of a tank and to develope your own method. I personally couldnt start a new tank without one, my short term memory is just to short.

Now truthfully, who has a log book and faithfully uses it?

Don

 

[Curtswearing]

Now truthfully, who has a log book and faithfully uses it?

Don

I use this software. ReefCon LT

 

[DonW]

I use this software. ReefCon LT

I tried that a long time ago but just wasnt that dedicated to running to the computer. I take way to many notes that I want to see on one page. Really informal but paper does the trick for me. I note everything from the little spot I see on a fish to cleaning the skimmer cup. It only take a few seconds to write a quick line.

Don

 

[Willy]

Awww why are you hating on the Purple Up, Nikki? :lol: Didn't I see a bottle in your tank stand the other night??? You need to quit buying that stuff I have plenty of baking soda if you need it.

 

[Frankie]

I disagree Frankie. Do you know how many nano and pico tanks I've sold? Most of the picos were for offices as well as many of the nano tanks. However, I've sold many nano tanks for home too for various reasons. With that said, I had a trick up my sleeve. I would always ask, "If you could only have one fish, which one would it be?" Depending on their answer, I might say come back in a few months and get a tank that can support that animal or I might say, OK, I'll ring you out on this nano.

Keep in mind Curt, your just one. There are hundreds of retailers out there that really don't give a dam. I applaud you for your efforts though.
I keep a journal next to my filtration system and log every move I make. I tried the computer one's in the past and did not keep as accurate real time records due to laziness. Having a book to write in right there seems to work much better for me. I jot down the time and date for everything I do.

 

[lavenderfish]

I want to applaud all the people who did answer questions fully and did post many links for my benefit and still would. I read for 6 months before water ever hit my tank. Books and the members here saved me many expensive mistakes.
I hardly know it all and doubt I ever will but I also get incredibly frustrated with the people that won't read or choose to take whatever LFS personnel say as gospel. My hubby works with a lady who is well on her way to killing her second set of freshwater fish in a 29 gallon tank. He mentions cycling and she gives him a blank stare. She mentions all her fish dying and he asks "was anything unusual about them?" only to find out they died of freshwater ich which is so obvious and easily treatable it's almost humorous. Stocking levels, adult sizes, preferred foods and the nitrogen cycle all elude her and she won't pick up a book or look for answers on the web. That is not fishkeeping that is buying sacrificial victims.

 

[trido]

Most of what I have learned over the years is trial and error and non stop reading. When I have a problem I rarely ask for advice but dig into the threads for my answers.

As much as I post here. This statement really hits home with me. THIS is what new reefers should do for at least a year after they have water in their tanks and then keep on going.

Every answer to almost every question is likely aready here.

Also, I have to agree with Frankie and Don. I keep a simple calender on the wall with a pen close by to log all of my data. The computer is way to many distractions away to work for me.

 

[NaH2O]

Awww why are you hating on the Purple Up, Nikki? :lol: Didn't I see a bottle in your tank stand the other night??? You need to quit buying that stuff I have plenty of baking soda if you need it.

Shoot, I was hoping you wouldn't see that behind the Eco-aquilizer, Weiss Black Powder, or Sand Boost. :lol: This one time at band camp.....

A tank log gives you the ability to reason without having to do everything by memory. Its one of the easiest way to keep track of a tank and to develope your own method. I personally couldnt start a new tank without one, my short term memory is just to short.

Now truthfully, who has a log book and faithfully uses it?

Don

Do little slips of paper count? I once had a fancy spread sheet made up, but I ended up not using it because it was easier for me to just grab a slip of paper by the phone to write down my test results. I have yesterday's sitting right here, with my notes on things to change for the upcoming week with my dosings. I really should be better about this. Maybe I'll try and get a small composition book, and log that way. I do have a pretty good memory for stuff......like when my husband makes a mistake......I ususally can remember those things . One of the advantages of being female!

 

[Skimmy]

people just look at me crazy when i tell them to treat their nano like a larger system, ie; the skimmer, lights, flow, sump, etc...like im tryin to sell 'em something.
yep, real stable nano tanks arent much cheaper than say a 40-55g tank, in reality. so this all in one crap, where nothing works that good, they're destin to fail in the hands of noobs, imo
but for seasoned freaks who get ocd on their tanks, all in one's can be fine.

alot of time the question isnt can it be done, but should it be done:idea:

"Nano"which is a relative word, can have vastly different definitions based on experience and understanding. My friends and I refer to my 72 as a nano. It really is a nano. I have a hard time even imagining keeping anything much smaller without a ton of electronics trying to maintain stability.

There are plug and play nanos that can do a good job. You get what you pay for. ELOS makes some good units but these quality"nanos" cost more than what I had sunk into my old fully equiped 180.

Seen three times as many nanos crash than large tanks. Seen even more beginners lose hard corals they weren't ready for in any sized tank. The BIGGEST obstacle with maintaining nanos: stability.

 

[dieden]

I agree, I have been fortunate enough to have an amazing LFS and all of you guys answering my stupid questions (I know, no stupid questions). All this for nearly a year and I still haven't seen a drop of water!!! You guys quickly talked me out of all in one nanos and even a forty gallon system. Completely changed my ideas of filtration (from freshwater thinking). Taught me not to cut corners no matter how insignificant they may seam. And truly critique the compatibility of the fish I would end up choosing. I don't have a running tank yet, but I thank all of you patient guys and gals for keeping me from being the fish killer I could have been without the guidence.

 

[Maxx]

A tank log gives you the ability to reason without having to do everything by memory. Its one of the easiest way to keep track of a tank and to develope your own method. I personally couldnt start a new tank without one, my short term memory is just to short.

Now truthfully, who has a log book and faithfully uses it?

Don

I do.

I've found that I started doing much better with my system when I could keep track of how often I did things or what my parameters were the previous week. It made it easier to spot trends with my system, and deal with minor fluctuations before they became swings.

Nick

 

[CarlaW]

I do.

I've found that I started doing much better with my system when I could keep track of how often I did things or what my parameters were the previous week. It made it easier to spot trends with my system, and deal with minor fluctuations before they became swings.

Nick

Glad I am not the only one!!!! I am to the point where I can't remember my name half the time anyways. I do weekly tests and note them in the log that is linked on this post. I find it alot easier doing that!! I can also note what maintenance I do to the tank in that log, along with notes that I take at home. I use alot of sticky notes.

 

[miwoodar]

Great thread Donw! Thanks for bringing this as a *new* thread whole in and of itself.

Now truthfully, who has a log book and faithfully uses it?

You got me. I have at least a half dozen log books but I tend to lose them or forget to record notes. I go through spurts in my note taking. If I'm dialing in my calcium reactor after a refill I'm probably too detailed. If everything is going well in my tank though I'm what you might call lazy.

I don't know if this makes up for my note taking lazieness but I have well more than 1,400 files on my computer with all of the articles and threads that have really pushed my skills forward. This helps me find information without having to go back to the web to relocate the article or thread when I really need it. I try to post links to the articles in the threads I participate in.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n231/miwoodar/Other junk/NewBitmapImage.jpg